To think the working world is shit if you're an introvert?

[serena7]

I am a good worker. I get things done quickly and I'm flexible and amiable. But all of that means nothing when it comes to career progression.

It's always the confident speakers who get promotions or get hired for jobs in the first place. I think with work, the work you do only accounts for about 30% of it. The other 70% is how you interact with other people, how likeable you are and how confident you come across.

I've worked in a few different industries and this has always been the case. I have really tried to improve myself; and I'm better than I used to be (I used to have panic attacks about presentations but now I can just about do it). But I've accepted I will never get too far in my career because I don't have the extroverted personality required. I do have diagnosed social anxiety which doesn't help, but even with medication and therapy, I still can't take confidence so I think this is an introvert trait I can't change no matter what I do.

I suspect where we differ is that I believe that most jobs have an element of 'the work' that is self promotion and being visible. If your work is always invisible and siloed then people struggle to differentiate one person from another. If you've got two employees, one of which you visibly see and hear about their work, and the other who just gets their head down. Who are you going to feel more confident about promoting and taking a risk on?

I did agree with the OP that confidence and charisma is unfairly over rewarded. But I would maintain that in most cases the work doesn't speak for itself. You have to be able to be visible, push yourself out of your comfort zone etc.

And that it's a lot easier to get on if you're mediocre but visible than if you're impressive but invisible.

But I still maintain the vast majority of people here, including the OP aren't really talking about the issues introversion has caused them in the workplace.

They're talking about shyness, lack of confidence, social anxiety and fear of public speaking. Most of those are problems that can be tackled step by step through a variety of soft skills training and CBT/Medical intervention. There will still be people who after all that still find they don't quite fit, and maybe that's cause they've not found their niche yet. Unlike yourself who took a step back and carved out the career that suited you and that you would excel in.

As I mentioned previously there's lots of books/courses that could help. One in particular is 7 habits of highly successful people. But also anything for soft skills, how to influence people, coaching for performance, presentation skills, emotional intelligence etc.

I know lots of people laugh about things like: Saboteur Assessment
Clifton Strengths
16 personalities (Myers-Briggs)

But I've also found those quite useful in terms of self growth and generating ideas/tools to improve on the things I find difficult.

Indeed, the extrovert does get more notice and that isn't a bad thing. I would add to that that when an extrovert needs help they get it so in terms of progression and skills they do advance more than an introvert (on average, everything else the same provisos of course). I know I'm easily overlooked (see previous post) so I have a tendency to try and master things alone. I work that much harder to keep up. Long term that is draining.

Bosses and managers are far too busy doing actual work to micromanage their employees and keep track of their output. It's your career. YOU want the promotion, so YOU have to put in the work. The biggest indicator of whether someone will succeed with additional responsibility is them being a self-starter. If they need to be 'found' and spoon-fed then they've already failed. There are more capable people than steps up available, so managers don't need to go hunting for the 'best', the best will reveal themselves.

For example in my first job I worked on a system that required some domain knowledge, proactively helped people with it who then told other people about me. Word spread, and that led me to my next job which became a great stepping stone for the rest of my career.
Had I kept quiet and just used my knowledge to 'do my job well' without thinking of the bigger picture, would I have gotten this far? Nope.

You say 'loud and chatty' like it's a bad thing and yes, of course managers should not be promoting people who are their golf buddies and make good chat about ski holidays. But speaking to other people, outside of your day job is how you see the big picture and connect your work to others! A big part of my success is knowing who to call to solve any given problem and that's thanks to my taking an interest in other people's work. I can also link it back to my work, show them how my team can help them and this has led us to getting the plum projects. Because we have a reputation for delivering and people remember how I helped them. I'm not loud, in fact people tend to talk over me but I know how to handle them.

Again, not saying there's zero politics.. or elements of a first impression or anything. But what we learnt in school - study hard and you'll get great marks is wrong. In the world of work, your labour is a product that you must market effectively to the right audience.

Btw r.e. extroverts... interestingly in my line of work people who talk too much, not concisely (mostly women) are looked down upon and seen as stupid. The people who talk less, but with 'gravitas' are seen as better. So it's not quite true that extroverts have the upper hand.

Haha, I can well imagine! I used to work for a big corporate and it was so much BS. Contracting one day is definitely the dream!

@NDWifeandMan
That really spoke to me - thanks.

I'm an introvert who has worked for a big extroverted US company for a very long time. I was lucky to start in a junior position and learn how to operate and am now in middle management. A highly social day exhausts me, but that doesn't mean it shows up in my work performance anywhere. I see how 'introverts' show up and try to coach them to be successful. There are those who have great skills and can manage their energy to be successful. Then there are those who don't engage with their team, who don't build relationships with key stakeholders, who don't try to expand their impact beyond their small role, who don't try to leverage others to help them be more successful, who never speak up even when their opinion would be valued. That's not 'introversion'. That's shyness, or lack of confidence or even a lack of self awareness about what's required in the role. You can do all those things required of you in a way that is authentic and balances your energy. Not doing them full stop and complaining about never getting promoted is holding yourself back.

Couldn’t agree more. I seem to manage to pretend for a while (a year or so), do really well then my real self comes out and I end up the same- being bottom of the pile, bit fed up etc etc x

@Resentful2023
Thank you.
I hope that helps me tomorrow on my management course 😁

It can be really hard. I am autistic, and the world is definitely far too noisy!

@TammyJones I think there are ways to leverage and honour your introversion and be successful. Like I used to think that you had to have a completely formed opinion on a subject to talk in a meeting. Then I realised that actually a superpower is asking questions. So you know when you're thinking 'why are they doing this in a meeting? I don't understand this at all. I have nothing to say about this', you ask 'can you please share the context to this decision? I think it will be helpful if we understand the background'. And boom you've contributed well to the meeting. Ask good questions a few times and the extroverts start calling you a thought leader. Often your thoughtfulness can be turned into a strength - once others get to see it and benefit from it - that's the key.

i used to be shy and to an extent i still am, but now if you want people to assist or you need projects doing sometimes you have to fake the confidence to hopefully complete the projects etc.

and from the Dale Carnegie book: how to win friend's and influence people, generally people like to talk, so if your asking questions etc you can usually get the main information you need

Every job in an organization with teams or with clients, the higher up you get it's all about relationship building - which is exhausting for an introvert

Yes, awful.
Always spoken down to although I think it's also because I look so young.
Hate small talk which takes up a large proportion of work.
Seen as weaker than loud colleagues.
Overlooked and underestimated.
Having to be around people all day when I want my own space.
Never 'in' with the bosses unlike my louder colleagues which puts me at a disadvantage.

Good post, @Resentful2023 — people are still, on this thread and in the world, confusing introversion with shyness and social awkwardness. You’re absolutely right on the key thing being to manage your energy if you’re an introvert in a work environment that requires a lot of engagement, and also that not doing things required by the job in order to prosper in the role and complaining about not being successful is just lazy and self-defeating. ‘I’m shy and people need to make allowances and not promote people who do the job more effectively over me’ is what is being said in many of these posts.

I say this as an actual introvert. Not a shy or under-confident person, but someone who needs to manage energy very carefully in my job.

I agree that it sucks that load, blustery extroverts are so often rewarded beyond their skillset. I have had to deal with far too many incompetent higher-ups who seemed to have very little grip on the detail of their job but a very firm grip on being their boss's golfing buddy.

I disagree that the working world has to be shit if you're shy/socially awkward/introverted/whatever. None of that means you can't set your sights on what you want and find a way to get there. There are industries, roles and companies that do rate employees based on their work rather than networking skills - it's up to you to find them. Also think about whether you actually want that promotion. Often rising up the company hierarchy means moving into roles which involve much more networking and relational stuff, and much less of the actual work. Sometimes you need to take a step back and ask yourself - do you actually want to take a step "up" into a role that will require you to do much less of the work you enjoy and much more stuff that you hate?

WFH is, of course, an absolute boon for introverts who are actually good at their jobs.

I’m an introvert and I thought I’d never be able to get into a leadership job but I cracked it now. I found a company where I could bring my whole self.
Ive become a lot better at presenting and speaking in a big group but I think putting myself in that situation forced me to adapt. If I hadn’t pushed myself it wouldn’t of happened.
I used to get terrified of presentations and I still get anxious when talking in a big group and the focus is on me but I always feel comfortable talking about something I’m good at. Plus when you lead a team you don’t need to know all the answers and can ask others as you are effectively leading and coaching them and not doing all the work yourself. As the other poster said sometimes the role above is not what you think it is.
Leadership roles involve a lot of networking, building relationships, problem solving, dealing with politics and resourcing challenges, managing challenging situations etc… and it does take you away from the doing esp if you enjoy the doing.
I was speaking to my mentor today and he mentioned how he realised early on that he didn’t want to manage a dept after he had a job managing 45 people. He just didn’t enjoy it. Sometimes it’s not what it’s cracked up to be.

I do think the extent you need networking is a bit of luck too.
One of my first roles on a graduate scheme I got put into a shit team. Had no work for 6 months, networked my way to an excellent boss who gave me a boost and a couple of promotions. My peer got put into an excellent team from the start, needed to do nothing extra at all and reached the same place as me solely by luck of the draw.
Others in my situation tried, failed to find a better team and eventually left the company.

Of course, if there's an open role and anybody's encouraged to apply all applicants get a fair chance. However, sometimes, say in a climate of recession and where official 'HR positions' in large companies are frozen the only way to move is for people to know your reputation and want you on the team, they can then arrange a transfer without needing to officially interview etc etc. They are different processes.

Also, sometimes a team isn't hiring but creates a role for an exceptional candidate.

I think of it as probability, right? Don't network. You may still apply from and get a job, chances 30%. Network, and that chance doubles to 60%. Not actual figures but that's the thinking.

Yes I think so.

Another day, another thread having a pop at "extroverts" (usually a completely inaccurate description).

People with social anxiety (not introverts, that's not what the word means) are well within their rights to feel that the world of work has given them a raw deal historically and that fortune has tended to favour the more confident. That's undeniably true.

They are not in their rights to think they are some protected characteristic or that they intrinsically more "interesting" or have greater depths than people who can handle themselves socially. Nor is it a revolutionary idea to whinge on and on about how hard their lives are. It's everywhere at the moment and its utterly self-pitying and deeply tedious.

It's not a binary thing: you can be "extrovert" in one social setting and deeply anxious in another. Your level of visibility and confidence will be determined by all kinds of factors including your level of seniority or comfort with an organisation and how you feel about yourself at any given time. It's fluid and it changes. The fact that people sometimes feel shy and unseen in certain settings doesn't mean this is set in stone or that the people who are more visible and confident have some conspiracy against them.

Can we just allow that everyone has varying degrees of comfort with social stuff which they grapple with in different environments and that even "extroverts" have problems and insecurities too and social confidence isn't a silver bullet. Can we change the record already?

I agree with this. It does depend on the context. In some situations you can be super confident and others not so much. One you may appear extroverted and another introverted.
A lot of people have the ability to change if they want it hard enough and find the right approach.
A bit of luck does play its part too.

But if you don’t have the skills to present, talk to people in the room, teach or mentor…

I do think that "some" of that can be learned with proper support provided by people/mentors who actually understand the issues. Obviously, some people genuinely don't have the ability, but a lot of it is the poor way that we don't support or train people to do it.

So much damage is caused by teachers at schools who just "don't get it" that some people are introverted, nervous, anxious, etc., about public speaking etc, and who think that making them "just do it", will cure them, but instead make them worse.

I would deliberately stay quiet and look a fool rather than even answer questions in class for fear of saying something stupid, and many teachers would make it worse by opening shaming me in front of class mates for "not knowing" a simple question. Bad enough for other kids to laugh, but teachers doing it too is unforgivable. Same with having to do class presentations - I did a few, made a mess of them, and subsequently just bunked off school for future ones! That kind of thing stays with you throughout your life.

In my career, there were times when I had to give presentations, etc., which literally made me ill just thinking about doing it, causing sleepless nights, causing physical sickness beforehand, etc., all from childhood memories and the fear of looking stupid. Thanks useless teachers for that!! I somehow got through it but never felt comfortable, and I knew that my performance/presentation was woeful, not through lack of preparation/planning, etc., but sheer useless delivery due to being overwhelmed by being on the spot.

And no, it doesn't get easier the more often you do it! If anything it gets worse because you become obsessed with past failures that you can't get over it, and foul up the future ones too!

I've personally been very upset when I see other people suffer the same, especially in work environments, when sometimes they're visibly struggling, shaking, etc., but of course, they've got to do it because everyone else has to do it and there's still some weirdos out there who think that you can overcome the anxiety etc just by doing it! I certainly made sure that none of the staff in my department had to suffer in the same way when I was managing my dept, and I always ensured some proper training/practising etc was available for the few times when presentations etc were essential, but mostly, I pared down the number of presentations required and dramatically reduced the size of the audience etc which I always found to be helpful working in smaller familiar groups.