To think the working world is shit if you're an introvert?

[serena7]

I am a good worker. I get things done quickly and I'm flexible and amiable. But all of that means nothing when it comes to career progression.

It's always the confident speakers who get promotions or get hired for jobs in the first place. I think with work, the work you do only accounts for about 30% of it. The other 70% is how you interact with other people, how likeable you are and how confident you come across.

I've worked in a few different industries and this has always been the case. I have really tried to improve myself; and I'm better than I used to be (I used to have panic attacks about presentations but now I can just about do it). But I've accepted I will never get too far in my career because I don't have the extroverted personality required. I do have diagnosed social anxiety which doesn't help, but even with medication and therapy, I still can't take confidence so I think this is an introvert trait I can't change no matter what I do.

Interesting thread. I N the opposite but find it fascinating how intruders see it as exhausting.

I mask.

Was on a training course last week that was incredibly interactive and hates every second of it.

This sounds totally like my experience when I was in my 20s, got picked out as "being quiet" in meetings and other situations. The type of job I was doing leant itself to extroverts and self promotion, the "loud types" if you will.

Meetings were exhausting listening to the same people harp on and basically say bugger all, but came across and hyper confident and thus more competent. But that was the culture in that job/company...and probably still is.

My boss kept highlighting it, she was a total bully and still wish I'd said much more in my exit interview and raised a formal grievance!

Looking back, I was completely bullied out of that job, as were a number of others...but at the age of 24/25 my response was to keep my head down and get another job lined up!

I think to some degree I finding the right job for you. I work in a small accounts team and our office is pretty quiet most of the time, we make a little small talk at the start of the day then keep ourselves to ourselves. I've never had to do presentations. I'm an introvert but confident in myself and my abilities so have always one well at interviews.

I find the school pick up note exhausting than work

It does depend on the role and the company, maybe you just haven't found the right fit yet. I'm very much an introvert, I changed jobs in February and have just had my first ever significant promotion.

’Work’ is not only about completing individual tasks, and success in most jobs these days requires some level of collaboration with others. So good communication and social skills are required to be effective in an organisation. This is a fact of life and means we all need to develop these skills, just like we need to learn technical skills.

There is no reason why introverts can’t be successful, become great leaders and managers, or whatever they aspire to be. I’ve worked in many companies, big and small, with all types of people and experienced this. In fact many top leaders are introverts.

I’m married to a deep introvert who’s a very senior leader in his field, has managed huge teams of people and big projects. He hates small talk and doesn’t do networking, but he’s a great listener and coach, gives full attention to his people, is straightforward and trustworthy etc. and definitely not afraid to express his views! . He’s taken management training courses and invested in getting better at some things that don’t come naturally.
‘Be yourself, with skills’ was advice I got years ago. Social and communication skills are essential to everyone since we still work and live in human systems (despite technology). Building these skills gives us more choices in how to react to, and influence, our context and shape the outcomes we want in an assertive, rather than passive or aggressive, way.

This does not mean ‘masking’ or acting fake, it’s about taking responsibility and feeling well equipped for what we want to do or be.

YANBU I too am an introvert and have found my career has stalled as I cannot be successful in an interview for the next level. A much less experienced colleague got it over me last time. He isn't better, but he is an extrovert

Can you fake it for an hour or two? If so the key is moving companies for promotions - if you do a good interview, once you start any benefit of the doubt will be in your favour.

I personally favour quality rather than quantity of input in meetings and in the right workplace - one where people are busy and dont want to be stuck in meetings that overrun - that goes over well. Being the person that solves difficult problems can also help - people will be so grateful you got them out of a pickle it won't occur to them to think "god she's so quiet."

As others have said, read Quiet by Susan Cain. It genuinely changed my life.

To me you're not describing introversion OP. I'm not suggesting you aren't an introvert, but that isn't what you're describing.

You're describing shyness and social anxiety. And yes they will be limiting factors to career progression.

I'm about as introverted as a person gets. I don't remember a single time where I missed social interaction or felt lonely despite long periods of time avoiding people. I was genuinely happier in lockdown when I no longer had to be around people and after a day of work and social interaction I need several days of being alone to recharge.

However I'm not even remotely shy, and whilst I do find socialising exhausting and un enjoyable I'm able to fake it by putting in 110% effort (hence needing several days to recharge). However I do agree with you, those that are confident (or able to at least fake confidence) and who put themselves out there are the ones who get on at work. Confidence is definitely over rewarded, but if you don't put yourself out there then how can people know what you're capable of 🤷

I agree I think there are lots of people on his thread who don't understand what being an introvert means.

I tend towards the introvert end of the spectrum but am capable of being sociable and speaking up in a work setting because it's part of the job. I may need time alone after an intense day because I find high levels of interaction with others exhausting but I don't lack confidence.

Just to add, despite being a total introvert I have done very well in my career and am currently being fast tracked to senior management.

I thoroughly recommend emotional intelligence, presenting and coaching courses if you have any available to you.

Whatever you may be, an empathetic would not have made this comment, so you're not one of those.

I've met my people 😄. I've largely come to terms with my unemployability (not entirely, I'm in the middle of a mid life reset), I've certainly come to terms with my nature. I have a young friend who is just the loveliest person in the world. Hugely inclusive team player, gives 110%. Unfortunately finds it hard to ever say no. But because of this she is a very useful employee. But she never ever gets promoted and I'm so mad for her. I think they want her as a dogsbody and don't respect her contributions (happy to take them though 😡).

Of course confident speaking and communication is a critical skill for career progression, imagine having a director or CEO who couldn't talk publicly, or negotiate confidently. Even much lower levels than that need the ability to speak out assertively.

The more senior you get the more emphasis there is in soft skills than technical, in my experience at least, and for good reason. That's not to say every confident speaker is also a competent leader, far from it, but you couldn't have a mousy leader, that would be a non starter.

I don't think the above is the reserve of extroverts only though, my previous director was immensely introverted socially, but professionally was able to speak out confidently.

There are some really good points on this thread about the difference between introversion and shyness.

Like lots of other introverts, I am good at socialising and good at presenting. I appear very confident. But when I am thinking I want to be alone. I am not capable of fully relaxing while being socially available to others. It drains me that this is what is expected, especially of women, in open plan offices, and it directly works against concentration, accuracy, creativity which are still expected of one who is good at those things and has specifically sought out a role in which you hope they will be valued.

I like meetings, and I like collaboration, when the task is genuinely sociable and suitable for teamwork. But I don't like this knee-jerk association that HR types have with bringing a social element into things that don't need it. If it works for you, fine - I understand that for some extraverts a quiet morning on a task alone is soul destroying and they would rather have two more people and three times the work. For me, I would rather you just give me my third of the work and let me get on with it - in fact I will probably do more like half of it in the same time, if you leave me in peace.

So some of it is a matter of preference and extraverts just don't understand that what works for them doesn't work for everyone. That's understandable. But I also think that there is an element of suspicion. Because they would much prefer to work in a group, they think that anyone who doesn't want to be outward-facing all the time is trying to get away with something. This element of suspicion is becoming more and more apparent now that home and hybrid working is more common - paradoxically - you would think that familiarity would reduce the suspicion, but no, there are more and more people Teams-ing it up all the time for no reason in the quite clear belief that they are very cleverly preventing you from some sort of scam when actually they are just making it harder for you to get on with your job.

So many people sent to work from home in the pandemic really struggled, got very strung out and their mental health suffered with the strain of being alone at a desk all the time. They missed that constant social friction. I wanted to say to them THIS is what it is like to be forced to be never alone, for people like me. It's exactly the mirror image.

Hmmm. I'm a massive introvert but I'm not sure I agree with the OP. As others have said, you're describing social anxiety and awkwardness.

The other 70% is how you interact with other people, how likeable you are and how confident you come across.

You can be introverted, yet also be a great communicator, liked and confident. In fact, sometimes it's easier as an introvert.

Being a great communicator doesn't have to mean being amazing at public speaking – more often, it's about sending really clear emails, checking in when you said you would, making sure other people understand what you're doing, asking the right questions and explaining things well.

Being liked – well, you often find yourself quietly liked when you do all of the above, because you're not someone who makes other people's jobs harder (trust me, there are plenty of those around). Just being quietly pleasant, smiling, good manners etc.

Confidence – why can't an introvert be confident? If you're skilled and capable, you'll give off an air of confidence. I think this is harder when you're younger, but it often comes with age and experience.

Fellow introverts: try Quiet by Susan Cain. It changed my life.

@NDWifeandMan spot on, good post.

The basic premise of this thread is right, historically the world of corporate work was very skewed in favour of extroverts and confident people (often men) and you had to "sell" yourself to progress in a way which favoured the confident.

I do think this has changed a fair bit though and some of these posts are a bit overdone. I do understand that its very challenging for someone with any kind of neurodivergence or someone who struggles with anxiety. But I think most workplaces are beginning to be more cognisant of this.

At risk of being flamed I do also see a lot of pretty militant and unhelpful views on MN about this. A certain sub-section of posters on here (and IRL) is so ridiculously resistant to making the most minor concessions to being socially pleasant sometimes and a lot of it is pretty unrealistic. I saw this get a lot worse after the pandemic as well.

You see posts on here regularly where people are absolutely furious about being asked to attend an annual summer party or invited to the boss's house once in a blue moon as if it were a gross intrusion on "family time" etc. There was one quite recently where a boss had invited people to their house on Sunday and some of the reactions were quite mad. "How dare they? don't they know this is family time?" etc etc. "Hell would freeze over...." etc. They're being asked to attend an annual BBQ, not to be waterboarded in front of their family.

The bare fact is that most jobs require some degree of diplomacy and basic people skills. It's not necessary to be a professional networker or a social butterfly. But if you work in a customer-facing job you have to be able to deal with the public. And if you with other people its not unreasonable to be expected to be minimally pleasant to them occasionally and to demonstrate professionalism through your behaviour. In most jobs its not reasonable to expect to be allowed to hide yourself away and have no interaction at all with co-workers.

Expecting people with social anxiety to lead company-wide presentations is obviously unreasonable. And a company does have an obligation to take disabilities (such as neurodiversity) into account. But a lot of people who self-describe as "introverts" sometimes give the impression that they are a protected characteristic who have an automatic right to basically be totally left to their own devices and not expected to have any social interaction at all. There is a middle ground here.

@Curiosity101

but if you don't put yourself out there then how can people know what you're capable of

Presumably, in most jobs, your actual work will tell your bosses/managers what you're capable of. Not, whether you're loud, chatty, etc., around the workplace. I think that's the crux of the problem - bosses/managers are looking for the wrong attributes or are pretty incapable themselves, so instead of looking around for the "best" candidate for promotions etc., they lazily only think about the ones who are "out there", i.e. the obvious ones who get themselves noticed.

I set up my own business, despite being an introvert, that includes taking on and managing staff, finding and looking after clients, etc. That was after 15 years of being ignored in various different workplaces despite always getting excellent appraisals and being given the hardest and most important clients! Never even a whiff of promotions within each firm!

I just set up my business based on my introversion, what I could do, what I couldn't do, etc., and targeted my marketing etc at clients who were likely to be similar, i.e. more professional/consultancy/small types of client rather than artistic/large clients. It's worked exceptionally well for the last 20 years! I don't "do" socialising marketing, don't do networking, don't do presentations to large groups, etc. I concentrate on "one to one" dealing directly with small business/self employed owners. On a 1-2-1, I can do small talk and in meetings/conversations, I can concentrate on the detail rather than "deliver to the crowd". I couldn't be happier!

Thank you, this is inspiring. You remind me of my introverted friend who always gets overlooked for promotion. I thought about this on the school run: I went on a 4 day course recently. Lovely people without exception. Everyone got time with the tutor except me. I'd ask for help and it never came. I think, unlike the rest, I wasn't doing the more extroverted thing by engaging the tutor in conversation, grabbing her as she walked across the room and so on. I was just less visible then the others. This happens to me ALL THE TIME and today I've understood why. 1 on 1 I'm chatty and engaging (I think at least 😆), in groups, even small ones, I sink.

Presumably, in most jobs, your actual work will tell your bosses/managers what you're capable of. Not, whether you're loud, chatty, etc., around the workplace. I think that's the crux of the problem - bosses/managers are looking for the wrong attributes or are pretty incapable themselves, so instead of looking around for the "best" candidate for promotions etc., they lazily only think about the ones who are "out there", i.e. the obvious ones who get themselves noticed.

I think this is a bit simplistic and a bit of a false dichotomy: there's a misconception that there's a clean line drawn between the "actual work" and the soft/promotional aspect of the work and that the "actual work" is what counts and the rest is irrelevant.

That may be true if your work is literally limited to delivering a product (such as making a cake or welding metal to create an object) without any interaction with others. But most people's jobs involve some degree of interaction with others. If you work in a shop, for example, or you work in event organising or hospitality or public relations or banking or finance or you work in most educational or healthcare roles the work literally is how you interact with others. It's very difficult to argue that your relationship with other people should be irrelevant. The people are the job.

There are definitely niches for people who struggle with this and if you're socially anxious or very introverted it makes sense to avoid a very people-facing job.

But its naive to think that there's an objective which can be drawn between "the job" and the soft elements of the job. To some extent, most of us have to learn to deal with other people at work: that's unavoidable.

I am all in favour of encouraging people to find jobs which suit their temperaments and needs, but it slightly worries me that people are being allowed to believe that they can completely dodge the hard but necessary business of rubbing along with others.

This is bullshit. How can you possibly assert this as a fact? If there are people taking beta blockers, how would anyone else know? Also public speaking is a skill that can be learned - it’s far more likely that (most) people have developed a skill gradually with practice than that they’re all secretly taking prescription-only drugs to manage a basic requirement of their job.