...to think teachers DO get paid over the holidays?

[MasterBeth]

It doesn't make sense to me.

Some people say teachers don't get paid over the holidays. They are paid, they say, for 40 weeks, but their money is aggregated over 52 weeks and paid monthly.

What does that even mean? How is it (practically) any different to being paid (less per week) for 52 weeks?

Exactly this. It’s that simple. Teachers are only paid for a contractual 195 days of on-site work. Their yearly salary for the 195 days is split into 12 equal monthly payments so they get the same amount of each month for administration and financial ease. Otherwise it would be a nightmare for direct debits, mortgage approval, budgeting etc.

Teachers are paid IN the holidays but not FOR the holidays. The only paid holiday they get is the same as the minimum statutory allowance the rest of the general population gets (approx 20 days + 8 bank holidays which is factored into their annual salary). The rest of the holiday days are completely unpaid.

If it’s easier, think of them as a seasonal or contractual worker, only paid for working a certain number of (the same) weeks every single year.

Of course most work obscenely in excess for the days and hours they are paid for, essentially reducing their pay per hour.

As PP said, people need to understand this every time they talk about extending the school year or reducing holidays - teachers salaries/tax to pay for it would have to be increased because you now have to pay teachers to work more days of the year.

When the 1265 hours figure was first brought in, maybe 20 years ago or more, there were instances of teachers sticking to the 1265 hours and it didn't go well, lots of things expected in schools didn't happen, after school plays, sports events and so on. I'm surprised it's still around.

I suspect many don't actually want to understand this.

I think they mean that part time teachers don't only get 60% of the school holidays, or something, but I think they're not really thinking about how it works in reality.

TBF, it can occasionally benefit teachers- if you e.g. take up a maternity post and start at an odd time, you'd still get paid during the next school holiday, which you might not if you had 2 weeks holiday booked, say, 2 months into starting a different new job. But that's true whether you're part time or full time.

Schools absolutely have the flexibility to do this, within their budgets*, just as any business could.

(*Yes, I know budgets are stretched to breaking point. That doesn't affect the principle.)

yes, I can sort of see what they are saying but just not sure it works like that, as you say.

A junior doctor might disagree with you...

But why do you need to constantly explain the holiday thing all the time. You have an annual salary. It's just pedantics to bang on about the holiday when every other person in a professional job just gets an annual salary, the same as you. And is expected to work out of their contracted hours, again, like you. You really aren't as hard done by as you (generic you, not you personally) seem to think!

@MasterBeth sorry, but that made me laugh. Schools can not randomly find extra cash to conjure up non existent teachers. Most schools are running a deficit next year as the pay rise is not, once again, funded by the government. We are cog to the bone already. It is a bit of a shit show.

Our pay is worked out for school weeks plus statutory holidays, so the summer break is not included. However our salary is split into 12 equal payments so we still get paid every month.

Teachers are paid for their directed time of 1,265 hours per academic year, spread over 195 days. They're salaried positions and their reduced pay takes into account the amount of time off.

No teacher in the history of time has worked only 1265 in an academic year

• Unlike teachers, most support staff members are employed on a term-time only basis. This means being paid only for the weeks that the school is open, e.g. 39 weeks, plus paid leave entitlement.

This is the NEU guidance on support staff pay and conditions. If we were paid for 39 weeks plus paid leave entitlement, it wouldn't say "unlike teachers".

Well, yes and no- it depends on the stage of your career.

If I'm a physics teacher with 2 years experience, I could negotiate being paid, for example M4- the same as e.g. a PE teacher with 4 years experience.

If I'm a physics teacher with 10 years experience, the highest I'll be paid in most schools is UPS3, the same as a PE teacher with 10 years experience.

There are exceptions to this e.g. the lead practitioner pay scale, which a lot of schools don't use, or perhaps the school can invent a TLR for me to give me a little extra incentive. But a MAT isn't allowed to break away from teacher pay scales for only a small proportion of their staff, and an LA maintained school has to use national pay scales.

Unless there's another workaround I haven't thought of?

Whereas, in private industry, it's not impossible for me to be paid £60k, whilst another member of staff with 10 years experience in a different field but similar role could be paid £40k.

Junior doctors deserve better too. Massive amount of solidarity with them.

And doctors (there is nothing junior about what any of the do) pay is even more crap. 2am running CPR for £14.09 an hour is why we don't have enough doctors either.

It's v v v simple. If the country wants good schools and medical care then they are going to have to pay for it. The old, well if you don't like it then leave saying has come true. People left. No one is replacing them fast enough.

Yeah, I think they haven't thought it through at all- those 15 days of leave still amount to 5 weeks off (potentially more if you're clever with bank holidays), assuming you choose to take them all in blocks of 3.

A part time teacher doesn't need holiday to work non-working days because... well... they're non working days...

Teachers and teaching assistants DO NOT get paid for the holidays. Their salary for days they do work are added up and divided by 12 months. So they get a salary every month. What is the point if f this stupid thread??? Let’s have a go at teachers shall we??? This thread stinks!!

Yes, I understand that schools can't just make up more money. That's why I said it was a matter of principle. However, a school could make a different decision about how it spent its budget. (Yes, I appreciate that this would no doubt mean cutting something essential elsewher.)

Of course, businesses can't just randomly find extra cash, either...

You can’t leave at May half term unless it’s been agreed with your headteacher. Notice deadlines are 31st Oct, 28th Feb and 31st of May to finish at the end of that term. If you hand in on the 1st June, you’re locked in until Dec.

@MasterBeth businesses can borrow money, schools can't. Years ago it might have been possibly but school ushers are now so awful we can't even afford to photocopy for a whole class, unless shrunk v small.

But the vast majority of schools have to also work to fixed national pay scales. Once you hit the top of them, individual negotiation becomes quite challenging.

It's not just about the available cash. Even if a school is running a massive surplus, they can't just decide to pay all their physics teachers (or whoever they are desperate not to lose) more, if those physics teachers have reached the top of the pay scale.

Whereas a private company with lots of spare money could do so.

How much did you earn ?

Businesses would be unwise to borrow money to fund salary costs!

It’s not pro rata. A teacher who is paid to work 195 days a year gets paid for 195 days per year. If they work additional days in the school holidays they don’t get paid overtime. They can’t say ‘hey Headteacher, I’d like to get paid a full time salary and take 6 weeks holiday a year, so can you find a few extra £££s to pay me for the extra hours?’

Junior doctors absolutely deserve more pay. Starting salary is an insult. Teaching starting salary isn't bad. But at least doctors have decent pay progression. And very decent at top of the pay scale. And opportunities to supplement income.