...to think teachers DO get paid over the holidays?

[MasterBeth]

It doesn't make sense to me.

Some people say teachers don't get paid over the holidays. They are paid, they say, for 40 weeks, but their money is aggregated over 52 weeks and paid monthly.

What does that even mean? How is it (practically) any different to being paid (less per week) for 52 weeks?

This isn't correct. The 1265 hours is not intended to include all your preparing and marking.

Anything you can do from home at a time of your own choosing isn't part of directed time. Our contracts do specify additional work as necessary as well.

If in school events/meetings/training etc take you over your directed time, then you should raise this with your union rep.

@letstrythatagain

Honestly many many professions are like this. It's the world of work these day. Not right at all but I know of nobody who only works their contracted hours.

In the private sector, sure but not public sector. In every other job, people would get time off in lieu. Not teachers.

And they aren't typically still earning £40k with 15+ years of experience under their belts either.

Awh this is such bs. As a senior civil engineer my friend makes 42 k. Work wise he never takes a break for longer than a day, so if he took of Sunday he'll work the whole of Saturday.
Civil engineers design roads and bridges and buildings. If that thing falls thousands of lives could be lost. Not to start on the lawsuits and money if they don't deliver on time. (from the contractors side) I'd say that's immense responsibility.
My mother is a teacher. Sorry, it is not even comparable.

And I'm assuming civil engineering is just one of the few jobs where long hours and low pay is the norm.
It frankly grates me when teachers feel like they're the only people getting hard done by.
I wouldn't put them first on the list.

Also as a genuine question, what are you marking over the summer hols? Marks should be in, children should now whether they pass or not by now?
You dont mark jack over the summer hols?

@Postapocalypticcowgirl that makes sense and I would definitely support an increase in pay if they wanted to increase the directed hours

I work in the public sector and have to work way more than my hours and never get overtime or time off on lieu.

@mumsneedwine very well said!!

Lots of people work extremely hard, not just teachers. But I don’t know any other profession that is bashed and branded lazy!

People aren’t exactly hammering on the doors wanting to train as teachers, hence why there is a staffing crisis!!

From the STPCD:
... a teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as may be necessary to enable the effective discharge of the teacher’s professional duties, including in particular planning and preparing courses and lessons; and assessing, monitoring, recording and reporting on the learning needs, progress and achievements of assigned pupils.

Teaching and parents' evenings are directed time. Preparing and marking is not.

However, if you were fortunate enough that maternity leave ended just before a major holiday, ie the summer, Christmas or Easter holidays, you could go back to work for a day or two, then get paid over the holidays, thus extending it that way... Obviously not everyone can do that... though a good proportion of the teachers I know have been able to

Plus also, if teachers work part-time, they still have 100% of their leave, whereas with any other profession, it's pro-rata...

Swings and roundabouts...

I didn't realise how badly teachers in England got paid 😳

It is a bit confusing, and you can see from this thread not even all teachers understand it. When I've been a union rep, I've actually realised not all school leaders understand it, either, and it can become a real source of dispute in schools.

To be honest, I don't think our contracts are that bad, but the issue is that in a lot of schools you have to fight to be treated according to your contract. And in some schools, if there isn't a strong union or people don't understand how it all works, people can end up very exploited and overworked.

It is all quite complicated, and I do wonder if it needs simplifying or certain things need clarifying, or whether it's fit for purpose.

It's almost always, ime, only mentioned after provocation or criticism regarding '13 weeks holiday' or comments about making the school holidays shorter.

And the reality is that if school holidays were reduced then yes, teachers would need to be paid more. They would be doing more contact hours, and have an increased work load as a result.

Well, actually teachers are paid for 1265 hours a year, which is worked over 190/195 days (I forget which).
However, the pay for the 1265 hours is split over 12 months.

Of course, you'd be hard pushed to find a teacher, regardless of experience, who doesn't work many more that those hours. Unpaid.

*Plus also, if teachers work part-time, they still have 100% of their leave, whereas with any other profession, it's pro-rata...

But we don't get any bookable leave....

Teachers are finding ways round the holidays and being paid, using shared parental leave.

Teachers really don’t have a monopoly on hard work

This is true, but it does get very wearing having to explain the holiday business year after year.

And nowadays teachers also have to fight to protect their hard won working pay and conditions against relentless attempts by ruthless bodies ,such as some of the Academy chains, to whittle them down . Gone are the days when every school in the country recognised the Burgundy Book agreements.

Is that right, the pro rated holiday bit? Doesn’t seem right, not sure if I’m misunderstanding.

@BlueWhippets that's because we are a bunch of work shy, lazy, moaning pains who sit around drinking gin all day 🤓.
Again, if you think the job is so easy and well paid please join us. We are pretty desperate!

Oh and I used to work in the city in the 80/90s, when it was cool to live in the office. Was much easier than teaching. And a hell of a lot better paid (I now earn 1/3 of my 1999 salary).

195 days for teachers.

190 days for pupils.

Thank you Mr Baker.

A local sixth form can’t recruit for this September so they have purchased an online teaching package. I guess that’s the way the education is going. Cheaper than hiring a teacher.

This ⬆️
it’s a wonder why there is such a crisis on retention and recruitment of teachers. I mean you all think it’s a cushy number . Get your degree. Complete the training and become a teacher .

To clarify again, 1265 is not all we are paid for.

51.7. In addition to the hours a teacher is required to be available for work under
paragraph 51.5 or 51.6, a teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as
may be necessary to enable the effective discharge of the teacher’s professional
duties, including in particular planning and preparing courses and lessons; and
assessing, monitoring, recording and reporting on the learning needs, progress
and achievements of assigned pupils.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1110990/2022_STPCD.pdf

Teachers are underpaid for the hours that they work. As are a lot of other professionals in other fields who work way over their contracted hours completely unpaid.

Anyone who says to contact their union about this hasn’t got a clue how raising anything with unions causes a backlash that you will pay for professionally until you move, or more likely are pushed !

Do you work in the public sector..? Have you seen NHS and local authority pay scales? TOIL also isn't a foregone conclusion, for full days yes, but for the odd hour here and there, no.

If I were to work 4 days a week, so 80% of a timetable, I'd still have 100% of the holiday since there'd be no point in me being there with no kids!

Usually if I worked 80% that would be matched in my holiday allowance so if everyone else got 20 days, I'd only get 16.

The extra hours probably are expected for many salaried jobs. I was more referring to the annual rather than weekly hours making it difficult to compare with other contracts.

Love someone starting a thread asking about teacher holiday pay and even this managed to become a teacher bashing thread, complaining we all say we work harder than everyone else. NO teacher has ever said this, in the history of mumsnet. I have a DD who is a doctor and I categorically know she works stupidly harder then me. And earns less. Now that really is criminal.