So is formula milk UPF?

[bumgripes]

It is, right? I mean, the ingredients list certainly is. And it’s listed on the BBC website as an UPF.

Going to be interested to see if this influences the BF/FF debate now that it looks like awareness of UPF is about to skyrocket. Does it even matter when they’re only on it for about a year? Does that fact that it’s an UPF actually add any info to the pre-existing evidence on BF/FF?

I really recognise this too. Throughout my stay in hospital and then in any dealings with health professionals afterwards when I was basically saying ‘please help me I really want to breastfeed but it’s not working’ the response was always some variation of ‘oh well, just give her formula then’.

The ‘feeding support’ was basically ‘here’s a pump use it constantly but it probably won’t work and you won’t be able to take the baby home unless you’ve got it to work or you switch to formula’ and whilst some people were more sympathetic than others nobody acknowledged that I was really upset that I couldn’t do it.

I don’t actually think any amount of support would have overcome the issue - I just didn’t produce any milk, but I think maybe some acknowledgment of my sadness and upset at this physical process wasn’t working for my baby or for ME would have helped maybe.

Tofu is not a UPF

I'm sorry that you had to go through that.

That's a thing I forgot to mention, plenty of women also experience traumatic births and I can understand how some may feel even more upset if breastfeeding doesn't work out if their birthing choice also didn't work out either. It's just a very vulnerable time so like I said, I can completely understand how it can come to feeling so upset about it.

The support needs to be better for those who wish to breastfeed too. I was asked at every appointment when pregnant if I would breastfeed even though I repeatedly said no, I was given breastfeeding leaflets and there were multiple discussions to basically try and change my mind. Obviously make sure that the mother is aware of the benefits of breastfeeding but the effort needs to be aimed at the mothers who want to breastfeed, not the ones who understand the benefits but have come to the decision that it isn't for them.

This is such a perception paradox and I think it's a really interesting one.

When you are a bf mum, it feels sometimes like the whole world is arraigned against you being so. Every problem you have with your baby - colic, sleep, skin, ANYTHING, and God forbid if you mention being tired - is put down to bf by relatives, HCPs of a certain vintage, and you are encouraged for a million different reasons to "get her on a bottle". Everywhere you try and feed it feels like someone's glaring or tutting or turning away in disgust. And any and every time you open your mouth about enjoying bf or the nice parts of it (convenience, contact napping, the closeness you feel to your baby) there's always a hundred people ready to jump down your throat that "NOT EVERYONE CAN BF YOU KNOW, don't be so smug".

But my friends who FF have the exact opposite experience, where all the HCPs they encounter ard dyed in the wool breastapo who encouraged them to starve their baby rather than let a drop of formula past their lips; who feel judged by everyone from their MIL to their partner to the postman to the other (mainly formula feeding statistically) mums at baby group; and who are continuously apparently being asked why they "couldn't be bothered " to give their baby "liquid gold" by ransoms on the bus.

I imagine there is some truth and some unconscious exaggeration on both sides, and perception and defensiveness plays a huge part. But you cannot get away from the statistics that most women in this country don't breastfeed, or breastfeed for a very short time. So where is all this judgment supposed to be coming from? It's a bit like the NAMALT thing - given the rate of sexual assault, we either have to believe a concerning proportion of men are doing these things, or that the supposedly tiny minority of them who are, are at it like stevedores day and night to keep the numbers up. Something about this doesn't stack up with me.

Well this is bollocks and precisely the sort of misinformation that worries mums trying to breastfeed.

Appeals to authority over source of information is not convincing. There are midwives who still tell people to use infacol even though it is statistically proven in double-blind studies to have no effect on colic. They too are qualified professionals. Up to date evidence is better than the say so of one senior individual who doesn't design to back up their statements with a source.

Unmumsnetty hug. I'm sorry it didn't go your way and people didn't give you support through that. There needs to be so much more and better support, not just so more women can breastfeed but because breastfeeding OR NOT (willingly or unwillingly) is a women's health issue, not just an infant health issue. Rar! This is my soap box subject of sure but I'll put a lid on it right now and just say I'm sorry you weren't listened to ❤️

You actually can ‘argue on that’. As a data scientist I have to say the studies to date on breast v formula show no difference once adequate controls are in place. That is no difference to a western woman with clean water supply and money to spend on formula (so the correct use of formula). I’m yet to see a conclusive study that shows an increased health risk to feeding a child formula.

the only accurate study into the impact of formula as a UPF would need a) group of breastfed only babies who are then fed UPF as children once weaned b) group of breastfed babies who never eat UPF as children c) group of formula fed babies who eat UPF as children d) group of formula fed babies who never eat UPF as children @Unknownwhere

groups B and D don’t exist so we are unable to study the impact of formula as a UPF specifically so any discussion of formula as a UPF vs breastfeeding etc can only be anecdotal.

Yes.

Of course formula milk in an UPF. It’s also what kept all three of my babies alive so I’m not too fussed, really, despite trying hard to cut back on other UPF. He’ll be one soon and then it can be gone.

Of course it is, but it keeps babies alive so who cares!

Are we not lucky that formula in this country is so closely regulated that it actually does give babies what they need? In other countries the make up is different and it is mostly sugar.

I BF my daughter and it is something I am extremely proud of, it’s amazing that I am able to sustain her. It has been hard, but I acknowledge that I have actually been quite lucky that it has worked out, and privileged to have gotten good support when I needed it for free.

Breastfeeding support in this country is so poor. People blame health visitors and midwives, but these people are in crisis mode at the minute and they receive barely any training in breastfeeding. Organisation like the breastfeeding network need more funding.

Mothers who WANT (I have absolutely no problem with people who want to to FF) BF need to have better access to information and support when the need it. People need to know that it takes days for their milk to come in, they need to know that cluster feeding is a completely normal thing, they need to know that if their baby looses over 10% of their body weight or has jaundice they will need to supplement with formula or pump. They need to be prepared for this and supported through it.

I was speaking to a lady who was triple feeding her baby for 6 weeks and eventually the pumping got too much and she moved over to exclusively FF. She was devastated but felt it was the only way forward due to sleep deprivation. She had not been given any support or guidance on moving away from triple feeding, despite her baby gaining weight from two weeks and her aim being to move to exclusively BF. We are setting these women up to fail.

It also doesn’t help that we have influencers like Molly Mae spreading misinformation about breastfeeding such as that if you get your period back it means that your milk supply is dropping.

I didn't have any traumatic experience 🤣

I've been on MN for 16 years, and I actually thought these types of threads were a thing of the murky past. Clearly not.

I have 3 DCs. Managed to BF DC1 for 17 days, DC2 for 13 days, and DC3 for 6 days.

I beat myself up about my 'failure' each and every time. It was hideous, and I'm certain it led to my PND.

I'm now a mum to a young adult and two teens, all totally healthy and thriving. I've got an excellent bond with all three. No allergies whatsoever, and all three went on to enjoy varied diets.

I wish I'd worried less about this stuff when they were little. It really doesn't matter.

@bumgripes so your children have zero UPF foods or you just feel strongly about zero formula yet let your children eat UPF?

The definitions of UPF is ingredients you wouldn’t have in your cupboard and multiple ingredients . As formula is supposed to be artificial breastmilk I don’t know why you would expect to have those types of ingredients that try mimic breastmilk in your cupboard. This is why I would not be concerned about formula being a UPF as it’s a very specific type of food created for a specific purpose.

it’s highly hypocritical though to say you wouldn’t use formula as it’s UPF if your children are then fed UPF!

You're right that formula is a UPF, and you're right that that makes an important point.

That point isn't that formula is bad because it's a UPF. The point is that using any rule of thumb like "UPF = bad" religiously without allowing for nuance is ridiculous.

@NeverDropYourMooncup put it perfectly right at the start of the thread:

It's one of the reasons why UPFs being demonised is such a shitty way to operate - it appeals to people who attach moral value to dietary choices and weight, but doesn't actually represent what is actually needed; food that is affordable and appropriate nutritionally for all sectors of the population.

Formula is great, it allows babies to be fed when their mothers can't or don't want to breastfeed. And not wanting to is just as valid a reason as not being able to, as I don't think anyone should get any say in how a woman uses her breasts. Bodily autonomy, freedom of choice - just as important here as in reproductive freedom.

The problem with lumping everything together under the UPF label, is that we automatically assume this label is bad/ junk food. But for formula, this is the opposite; it has become ultra processed because of the long journey to develop as nutritious an alternative to BF as possible for infants. Its ingredients are tightly regulated by a national body, and if any company find a new ingredient that is widely agreed to be beneficial, all formula companies are required by law to include the ingredient. So formula has benefitted from being an ultra processed food.

As other posters have said, people should know about the differences between BF and FF generally, and should not waste any time worrying about the UPF label, as it means something different in the case of formula.

I have 4 children and have never used formula, but I was always comforted to know a nutritious and perfectly healthy food was available if I needed or wanted it.

That’s an interesting point! Breastfeeding aside, I’m sure the age at which you are advised not to give normal cows milk to babies has only gone up to one in recent years. So health professionals are advising mums to give a UPF, rather than a natural product to babies!

@CecilyP the advice is you can use cow’s milk (whole) in cooking for babies from 6 months so that’s what I’ve done, but only as a main drink from 1 year. I think that’s been the advice for a long time. Can’t wait to get rid of the formula! He’s only on two bottles a day anyway now.

No, I don’t think the advice has changed all that recently, I’m thinking more like 30 years ago!

My cousin's were in Farex at 6 weeks and my younger siblings were fed on diluted Evaporated milk, all survived and are well and healthy now. Don't be so bloody precious!

It would be a whole load more productive if the discussion were about why a descriptive term for foods that are highly processed for whatever reason is now being coopted as a shorthand for poison/obesity/being lower class/gluttony.

Some UPFs are essential. Some UPFs are valuable. Some taste nice but are unhealthy in large quantities. None should have moral value attached to them.

If it weren't for the moral value people have absorbed as a result largely of people wanting to make millions from diet books, there wouldn't be a multiple page thread of women arguing about formula feeding vs. Breastfeeding, desperately kicking back against the idea that a perfect example of an ultra processed food is ultra processed.

Formula milk is ultra processed. And? It's better than babies not being fed.

Reminds me of the 1980s fuss about all E numbers or microwaves.

Is the stuff they pump into patients via feeding tubes also UPF? If so, shouldn't the NHS stop using it and just blend up some MN chickens (each patient would only need one a week, after all).

Very few mothers are unable to produce milk. (for example extreme hypothyroidism). Some babies are unable to suckle (for example cleft palate or other congenital malformations)

Formula should be reserved for cases where mothers cannot breastfeed due to medical reasons.

If it was available on prescription only, then we wouldn't be subjected to all the advertising to convince us that it's 'just as good'. And people would stop thinking of it as an option for otherwise capable mothers and babies.

Formula is not as good as breastmilk. Fact.

But nobody thinks enteric feeding is just as good as normal eating. People only do it for medical reasons.