Page 9 | Karen advert

IncognitoMam · 2023-08-26T06:29:14+00:00

This shouldn't be allowed surely? Who comes up with this shit? I'm not called Karen but I know Karen's that hate their name now because of the way it's used.

Original poster

IncognitoMam · 26/08/2023 11:06

Maddy70 · 26/08/2023 11:04

Really can't get worked up about this even though i dont really like the term. . My sister's name is Karen she calls other people Karen . While it is derogatory, the actions of those who are called it do sometimes need to be called out on those actions and it's a way of highlighting that poor behaviour

Just say cow,bitch etc if she feels that strongly.

I call people knobs no matter what genitalia.

OP posts:

MorrisZapp · 26/08/2023 11:07

Obtula · 26/08/2023 10:57

They are among the worst of the worst. The men carried out the terror

So women weren't actually the very worst. Do you have a term for the men who carry out the actual violence?

Of course not! Male violence and its intergenerational traumatic legacy is just the air around us. No need for comment. Women though, they should definitely be challenged. They're the worst. Real nasty people.

supersop60 · 26/08/2023 11:07

Sorry, I haven't RTWT.
I thought that Karen was used to describe middle aged women who are acting unreasonably.
It's not about being assertive with a legitimate complaint.
A Karen IME is one who screams and shouts, is rude and insulting, and demanding rights that aren't appropriate or legitimate.

BCCoach · 26/08/2023 11:07

DeeCee77 · 26/08/2023 08:24

Where are they from? If they are not from the US that term doesn't apply to them.

Karen is just the latest term used by African Americans to refer to a meddlesome white woman from the US who uses her white privilege, sometimes to deadly consequences. US history is littered with white women terrorizing non white people by accusing them of something, which is followed by the white man then taking action. Emmett Till is probably the most famous example;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

"Emmett Till was an African American boy who was abducted, tortured, and lynched in Mississippi 1955 at the age of 14, after being accused of offending a white woman, Carolyn Bryant, in her family's grocery store."

Good article in the New York Times on this; How White Women Use Themselves as Instruments of Terror;

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/opinion/racism-white-women.html

"We often like to make white supremacy a testosterone-fueled masculine expression, but it is just as likely to wear heels as a hood. Indeed, untold numbers of lynchings were executed because white women had claimed that a black man raped, assaulted, talked to or glanced at them. The Tulsa race massacre, the destruction of Black Wall Street, was spurred by an incident between a white female elevator operator and a black man. As the Oklahoma Historical Society points out, the most common explanation is that he stepped on her toe. As many as 300 people were killed because of it. The torture and murder of 14-year-old Emmett Till in 1955, a lynching actually, occurred because a white woman said that he "grabbed her and was menacing and sexually crude toward her". This practice, this exercise in racial extremism has been dragged into the modern era through the weaponizing of 9-1-1, often by white women, to invoke the power and force of the police who they are fully aware are hostile to black men. This was again evident when a white woman in New York's Central Park told a black man, a bird-watcher, that she was going to call the police and tell them that he was threatening her life."

Look at the reaction to the 1915 film The Birth of a Nation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation#Audience_reaction

Your friends need to stop attaching a label that doesn't belong to them, nor feeling annoyed over their ignorance, and also educate themselves on the misery and terror inflicted on a group of people.

Show quote history

Irrelevant. The term is being used by a British company (Nookal) in an advert aimed at British GP practice managers.

Beachcomber · 26/08/2023 11:07

AnObserverInThisDarkWorld · 26/08/2023 10:59

Definition of a Karen
What does Karen mean? Karen is a pejorative slang term for an obnoxious, angry, entitled, and often racist middle-aged white woman who uses her privilege to get her way or police other people's behaviors.

Obnoxious
Angry
Entitled
Often racist
Uses her privilege

How is that being used as a slur against assertive women?

Because people don't only use the term as defined in your post.

And even if they did it would be shit to use an actual and very common women's name.

And why do we need a term for middle aged white women who are rude? Do we have one for middle aged white men? Or young men or male pensioners?

And the rather fictional sounding woman in the definition you give just sounds like a lazy sexist, ageist, racist stereotype anyway so I don't think I'd be too proud of it.

BibbleandSqwauk · 26/08/2023 11:08

@AnObserverInThisDarkWorld because people don't use words strictly according to their official definition. So what is in fact an assertive confident woman speaking up can be perjured as "angry, entitled, aggressive" by labelling her a "Karen ' with the intent of shutting her up, mocking her point and generally hoping she'll stop being "difficult".

Saschka · 26/08/2023 11:08

DeeCee77 · 26/08/2023 10:46

Must admit I'm flabbergasted by the extent of the ignorance on here towards a subject that is well documented, that is the history of terror inflicted on non white people by what is now the most powerful nation on Earth.

Granted I'm well versed on this subject as although I'm white and Irish, thus thousands of miles away from where it all took place (and still takes place), our own civil rights marches in 1960s Northern Ireland were directly inspired by those undertaken by MLK and co. What my parents generation as catholics went through isn't comparable to what the black (or natives) went through in america, but it inspired them nonetheless.

The Karen should give any decent human being chills. They are among the worst of the worst. The men carried out the terror (public lynchings) but quite often at the instigation of the Karen, the racist white american woman who weaponised her white privilege. From george washington's wife and daughters onward (who felt entitled to own human beings, like pets) that place has traumatized a group of people who showed incredible dignity and courage in the face of unspeakable atrocities.

Then you can see why a woman would object strenuously about being called a Karen for calling out racism from a group of white male coworkers (just bantz, apparently, shut up Karen). Or for objecting to being groped, again by a white male (stop being such a Karen).

None of us need a list of Wikipedia links about racism. You need to listen to people’s actual, lived experience of how this term is being used by misogynists to shut women up, instead of saying that if a woman objects to being called a Karen for calling out racism, she probably did it in a nagging way, or with a shrill tone of voice, so probably counts as a Karen really.

Lndnmummy · 26/08/2023 11:09

Baldieheid · 26/08/2023 10:29

@DeeCee77
Is there a white male equivalent for Karen in the original context?

Is there a male equivalent for Karen in the current context in the UK? The way it's being used in the advert, I mean?

There's been a couple of names mentioned by others but I've never heard either being used, except as names for men.

Oddly, I can't think if one, but your expertise on the history of black oppression and racism in the US may have the answer, I hope.

Again. Yes. John

IsadoraQuagmire · 26/08/2023 11:12

DeeCee77 · 26/08/2023 10:46

Must admit I'm flabbergasted by the extent of the ignorance on here towards a subject that is well documented, that is the history of terror inflicted on non white people by what is now the most powerful nation on Earth.

Granted I'm well versed on this subject as although I'm white and Irish, thus thousands of miles away from where it all took place (and still takes place), our own civil rights marches in 1960s Northern Ireland were directly inspired by those undertaken by MLK and co. What my parents generation as catholics went through isn't comparable to what the black (or natives) went through in america, but it inspired them nonetheless.

The Karen should give any decent human being chills. They are among the worst of the worst. The men carried out the terror (public lynchings) but quite often at the instigation of the Karen, the racist white american woman who weaponised her white privilege. From george washington's wife and daughters onward (who felt entitled to own human beings, like pets) that place has traumatized a group of people who showed incredible dignity and courage in the face of unspeakable atrocities.

What on earth are you talking about? Everyone already knows the origin of the term, but it's as irrelevant to this discussion as banging on about the origins of the term Woke, which also means something different now.

MasterGaveDobbyASock · 26/08/2023 11:12

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/karen-meme-origin-the-history-of-calling-women-karen-white-2020-5%3famp

The origins of Karen are misogynstic. A wise mumsnetter with computer expertise did a search before and found that the earliest mentions were of a divorced white woman taking the kids, not of racism.

And there's no social justice for a white male calling his teacher a Karen because she asked him to do his homework. Or a man on the internet calling a woman Karen in a heated debate about a non racial subject.

Just common garden misogyny. Anyone defending it needs to 'educate themselves' rather than shitting virtue signalling articles which have no relevance in the context given.

How the name 'Karen' became a stand-in for problematic white women and a hugely popular meme

The "Karen" meme depicting women who ask to "speak to the manager" has become nearly ubiquitous online. Here is the meme's history and origin.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/karen-meme-origin-the-history-of-calling-women-karen-white-2020-5%3famp

Maddy70 · 26/08/2023 11:12

IncognitoMam · 26/08/2023 11:06

Just say cow,bitch etc if she feels that strongly.

I call people knobs no matter what genitalia.

Show quote history

But that doesn't describe what behaviour is being called out , and they are far more derogatory terns surely?

SomeCatFromJapan · 26/08/2023 11:12

The Karen should give any decent human being chills. They are among the worst of the worst. The men carried out the terror (public lynchings) but quite often at the instigation of the Karen, the racist white american woman who weaponised her white privilege

I'll tell you what gives me chills - your ability to blame women for the universal problem of male violence.

MorrisZapp · 26/08/2023 11:13

I've googled John and can't find anything. I've only ever heard of 'a John' as a purchaser of sex. Has anyone else heard of violently racist men being called Johns? Or current people called John in the UK being labelled with this historical racist connection?

WeetabixTowels · 26/08/2023 11:14

FFS

If I used Nookal I’d be boycotting it

MorrisZapp · 26/08/2023 11:14

SomeCatFromJapan · 26/08/2023 11:12

The Karen should give any decent human being chills. They are among the worst of the worst. The men carried out the terror (public lynchings) but quite often at the instigation of the Karen, the racist white american woman who weaponised her white privilege

I'll tell you what gives me chills - your ability to blame women for the universal problem of male violence.

Yip. Depressing.

MNHQ

PipMumsnet · 26/08/2023 11:15

Hello everyone, we are getting a lot of reports about this thread. So could we please suggest that we get it back on track and request that posters stop derailing the thread.
MNHQ

MikeRafone · 26/08/2023 11:15

my mate is called Karen she laughs it off

why should anyone have to laugh about their name being used as an insult

WeetabixTowels · 26/08/2023 11:15

SomeCatFromJapan · 26/08/2023 11:12

The Karen should give any decent human being chills. They are among the worst of the worst. The men carried out the terror (public lynchings) but quite often at the instigation of the Karen, the racist white american woman who weaponised her white privilege

I'll tell you what gives me chills - your ability to blame women for the universal problem of male violence.

Yep!

A complaining woman is worse than a violent man apparently

Obtula · 26/08/2023 11:17

Women are responsible for everything women do and also everything men do.

ElBandito · 26/08/2023 11:18

@DeeCee77
I'm flabbergasted that you don't get that we all understand what you are saying?

We know the origin of the word.

We know that in the UK the use of Karen as a term has evolved, been corrupted if you like, to refer to middle aged white women who complain about anything.

We don't approve of the way it is being used now in the UK.

But you're still complaining about us rather than the those, like the company in the advert, who are using it 'wrong'.

Why?

Baldieheid · 26/08/2023 11:19

Lndnmummy · 26/08/2023 11:09

Again. Yes. John

Show quote history

Examples, please?

Links to media stories?
Tiktok videos?
YouTube?
Newspapers?

As far as my experience goes, your chosen name is just a mans name, used to call him in fir dinner, not to shut him up at work or online.

It would be really useful to see it used in context. I've searched and found nothing, I'm afraid.

GCAcademic · 26/08/2023 11:20

We know that in the UK the use of Karen as a term has evolved, been corrupted if you like, to refer to middle aged white women who complain about anything.

Not just white women, either.

SomeCatFromJapan · 26/08/2023 11:21

Yes I've seen John used interchangably with punter for a purchasor of sex but it's never been extended as a general insult for men who get out of line.
Probably because men's behaviour seldom is considered "out of line".

Obtula · 26/08/2023 11:21

I've never heard "John" used as an insult either and I think that poster is taking the piss.

BarqsHasBite · 26/08/2023 11:21

👏 👏 👏 well said! @MasterGaveDobbyASock