Page 37 | Karen advert

IncognitoMam · 2023-08-26T06:29:14+00:00

This shouldn't be allowed surely? Who comes up with this shit? I'm not called Karen but I know Karen's that hate their name now because of the way it's used.

NotTerfNorCis · 27/08/2023 19:21

SomeCatFromJapan · 27/08/2023 19:14

I wondered when Gen X was going to start getting it in the neck btw - I see it has indeed started to creep in over the last year or so. The Boomers will be relieved.

Wow yes that's a scary thought. I notice that the mantle of 'young foolish layabouts' has recently passed from Millennials to Gen Z.

CecilyP · 27/08/2023 19:21

MorrisZapp · 27/08/2023 19:16

Literally nobody, not one human in the UK, thinks anti social behaviour is an umbrella term which covers being condescending.

If it was then my mother would have a fkn ASBO.

Love it!

wayyour · 27/08/2023 19:21

BillaBongGirl
Karen is not a slur. It is a derogatory insult for attitude/behaviour.

What do you think a slur is? 🙄

🤣 I've taken it from her favourite dictionary as she obviously doesn't know

8. a disparaging remark; a slight.

wayyour · 27/08/2023 19:22

MorrisZapp · 27/08/2023 19:16

Literally nobody, not one human in the UK, thinks anti social behaviour is an umbrella term which covers being condescending.

If it was then my mother would have a fkn ASBO.

🤣

Myfavouritepenguin · 27/08/2023 19:23

Right, read the whole thread now, in all its glorious insanity.

Am now totally convinced that a certain gaslighting poster is indeed a white male!

@BillaBongGirl you must know that you’ve lost this argument?!! Telling women who are being called Karen that they are complicit in some sort of bullshit misappropriation?

It seems pretty clear where the slur came from. However, even if it was originally used purely to call out racism, it’s now being used to shut up any middle-aged woman. Of course it’s ageist and misogynistic! How are you still arguing otherwise?

BillaBongGirl · 27/08/2023 19:26

wayyour · 27/08/2023 19:10

Anti-social is an umbrella term covering entitled and condescending.

But nothing in it says it is a misogynistic or ageist slur, not ever, not even “primarily”

As you're clearly struggling I'll spell it out for you, once more.
No, anti social doesn't mean condescending or entitled, Billabong. Being condescending or entitled isn't anti social behaviour.

Anti social according to a dictionary you're familiar with (try using it).
1. unwilling or unable to associate normally with one's fellows.
2. opposed, damaging, or motivated by antagonism to social order, or to the principles on which society is constituted.

Génération X (so middle aged - ageism ✅), entitled (✅) and condescending (✅) - common 'Karen' traits according to UK definition also, and the fact that this is only used as a derogatory term applied to women (there's the misogyny ✅) then often racist tagged on the end. Understand?

So primarily then, predominately as the definition says, and just like the Australian poster said earlier who was quite certain of its use.

Why I'm engaging with this nonsense I don't know!

As the derogatory term is for their attitude rather than any protected characteristic, I cannot agree with you and that will not change.

I will add though that having an entitled and condescending attitude is not associating normally with ones fellows, and therefore is by definition antisocial. The principles of our society are founded on courteous and polite behaviour rather than entitled and condescending behaviour, so also by definition antisocial.

WolfFoxHare · 27/08/2023 19:28

BillaBongGirl · 27/08/2023 17:52

I knew this would happen but was accused of “spamming” last time I posted the definition of Karen from the Australian dictionary. Here it is again. Your personal experience of any local usage is not as compelling as a published dictionary definition which reflects the most common usage of an entire nation.

Show quote history

The very fact that that definition of which you’re so very fond says ‘often racist’ [emphasis mine] is clear evidence that in Australia, it’s not purely or always used to call out racism. Which proves our point - that it’s also used in a non-racist context.

WolfFoxHare · 27/08/2023 19:30

Oh I see @wayyour is there before me! But clearly @BillaBongGirl is completely unable to accept when she’s incorrect…

BillaBongGirl · 27/08/2023 19:31

wayyour · 27/08/2023 19:21

BillaBongGirl
Karen is not a slur. It is a derogatory insult for attitude/behaviour.

What do you think a slur is? 🙄

🤣 I've taken it from her favourite dictionary as she obviously doesn't know

8. a disparaging remark; a slight.

Sorry, but it is recognised that when talking about derogatory terms that slurs are insults that are illegally offensive under hate speech laws. As in an insult against a protected characteristic
”an offensive word used to insult someone because of their race, sexuality (= the fact of being sexuallyattracted to people of a particular gender), etc.:”

That is what posters meant when they were saying that Karen is an ageist and misogynistic slur- that is is an insult against the two protected characteristics of both age and sex under the equality act.

their

1. of or belonging to them: 2. used to refer to one person in order to avoid…

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/their

NotTerfNorCis · 27/08/2023 19:34

Slur: 'an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation.'

I'd call 'Karen' an insult more than a slur, but 'an insinuation likely to insult someone' is pretty close.

BillaBongGirl · 27/08/2023 19:35

WolfFoxHare · 27/08/2023 19:28

The very fact that that definition of which you’re so very fond says ‘often racist’ [emphasis mine] is clear evidence that in Australia, it’s not purely or always used to call out racism. Which proves our point - that it’s also used in a non-racist context.

Show quote history

That wasn’t the point I was objecting to. I was objecting to the poster who said it was never used in a racism context.

wayyour · 27/08/2023 19:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BillaBongGirl · 27/08/2023 19:36

NotTerfNorCis · 27/08/2023 19:34

Slur: 'an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation.'

I'd call 'Karen' an insult more than a slur, but 'an insinuation likely to insult someone' is pretty close.

Yes Karen is an insult.

wayyour · 27/08/2023 19:37

NotTerfNorCis · 27/08/2023 19:34

Slur: 'an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation.'

I'd call 'Karen' an insult more than a slur, but 'an insinuation likely to insult someone' is pretty close.

Yes, definitely.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 27/08/2023 19:39

I would call it a slur, because it's used for women, and middle aged women to be precise.

That's two protected characteristics, sex and age.

wayyour · 27/08/2023 19:43

I'm still laughing (easily amused I know!) at the idea of someone being issued an ASBO for being condescending 😂

Though I don't think they're called ASBOs these days?

BillaBongGirl · 27/08/2023 19:45

NotTerfNorCis · 27/08/2023 19:16

From Wikipedia:

In African-American culture, there is a history of calling difficult white women or those who "weaponize" their position by a generic pejorative name[...] As late as 2018, before the use of "Karen" caught on, alliterative names matching particular incidents were used.[..]

For the term "Karen", several possible origins have been proposed. Early uses of Karen as a joke punchline include the airheaded character Karen (played by Amanda Seyfried) from the 2004 film Mean Girls, Dane Cook's 2005 sketch "The Friend Nobody Likes" on his album Retaliation, and a 2016 Internet meme regarding a woman in an ad for the Nintendo Switch console who exhibits perceived antisocial behavior and is given the nickname "antisocial Karen". In December 2017, Karen memes regarding entitled women went viral on Reddit, the earliest being from user karmacop9, who ranted about his ex-wife Karen taking custody of their children. The posts led to the creation of the subreddit r/FuckYouKaren, containing memes about the posts, and inspiring spinoffs including r/karen and r/EntitledKarens dedicated to criticizing Karens.

According to Wikipedia, 'Karen' didn't originate with African-American culture at all! 'Karen memes regarding entitled women went viral on Reddit in 2017, but Karen didn't catch on the African-American community until 2018 at least.

It was on Black Twitter in 2010. Like most of our stuff, it doesn’t go viral until the white community takes it as we are a minority.

wayyour · 27/08/2023 19:50

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 27/08/2023 19:39

I would call it a slur, because it's used for women, and middle aged women to be precise.

That's two protected characteristics, sex and age.

Some people certainly believe it is a slur. I've seen it described as such in newspapers articles I'm sure.

WolfFoxHare · 27/08/2023 19:52

BillaBongGirl · 27/08/2023 18:29

Surely it’s up to you to convince those that misuse it that you & your friends are not Karens?

By buying into their appropriation and misuse of it as an ageist and misogynist insult, are you not agreeing with them that they are using it correctly? And thereby being complicit in the appropriation and misuse of Black culture and slang?

Show quote history

There is so much wrong with this. We’re not agreeing they’re using it correctly. We’re objecting to the usage. Do you understand that? We think the usage is incorrect. We do not accept it. We do not buy into it - reporting the usage is NOT “buying into it”. We are attempting to discuss it here. We are protesting it in this very thread!

And YOU in particular are trying to silence us. You are trying to prevent us objecting to it. You are blaming us for being attacked and victimised. You are making it worse.

Do you FINALLY get it now or will this just bounce off your oblivion-field?

NotTerfNorCis · 27/08/2023 19:52

It was on Black Twitter in 2010. Like most of our stuff, it doesn’t go viral until the white community takes it as we are a minority.

Someone had better update the Wikipedia page then.

This is from 2005: 'Every group has a Karen, and she's always a bag of douche.' He's got Brian as the male equivalent - that one obviously died the death.

Kaz40s · 27/08/2023 19:53

Hang on... the fact that the term "Karen" is used to describe an often racist, complaining middle aged 'WHITE' woman is a racist term then in itself surely? Does all races not have the capability to be racist towards each other? There's an alternative slur name for other ethnicities then obviously for those who are racist towards others? NO!? Why not?🤷‍♀️

In the uk its mainly used to shut us up but didn't really take on board the racial connotations of the term 🤔 Wrong on every level then!

MorrisZapp · 27/08/2023 19:54

ASBOs were all the rage during the 'hug a hoodie' years. I always thought they sounded like a badge of honour.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2023 19:54

There is nothing about a middle aged, white woman acting all entitled and racist

That's because it wasn't about race until later.

NotTerfNorCis · 27/08/2023 19:57

Have to say, when I first heard 'Karen' used as an insult, it was the 'asking for the manager' stereotype. But I was aware of the 'racist Karen' at the same time. I think this would have been 2019?

As I remember, at the time it felt safe for a lot of people to make Karen jokes because it seemed to be about a certain type of woman. A woman who wasn't them. But the meaning very quickly broadened into a general sexist insult.

BillaBongGirl · 27/08/2023 20:05

WolfFoxHare · 27/08/2023 19:52

There is so much wrong with this. We’re not agreeing they’re using it correctly. We’re objecting to the usage. Do you understand that? We think the usage is incorrect. We do not accept it. We do not buy into it - reporting the usage is NOT “buying into it”. We are attempting to discuss it here. We are protesting it in this very thread!

And YOU in particular are trying to silence us. You are trying to prevent us objecting to it. You are blaming us for being attacked and victimised. You are making it worse.

Do you FINALLY get it now or will this just bounce off your oblivion-field?

Show quote history

How is there so much wrong with what I said when I was responding to a poster telling me:
You need to convince those who use it due to ageism and misogyny.

That no, actually, you need to do the convincing, not me do the convincing.

If I was wrong, then they were wrong too…so who is going to do the convincing? I’m in the smallest minority as a working class Black woman…if you are a middle class white woman then you are in the majority with privileges and likely wealth and power that I don’t have.

Who does the convincing then?