Page 8 | Raging about shared parental pay - has anyone challenged this (vs mat leave policy)

Soundbathfan · 2023-08-24T22:22:02+00:00

The nhs mat policy whilst better than many is much crapper than many too My husband gets better mat leave in his medium sized private tech company than I do. His company don't have a shared parental pay policy which I am angry about. He has asked about this and has been sent a shared parental leave notification form but this doesn't include anything about pay (which I'm assuming will be stat rate) Other similar companies to his DO offer comparative mat and parental pay. Has anyone ever challenged an employer on their offer and lack of comparability to mat policy? He is the first person ever to have asked about this in his male dominated organisation Thanks for any advice you have :)

Codlingmoths · 28/08/2023 02:04

Sisterpita · 27/08/2023 08:19

With the exception of Mat leave all family friendly policies can be taken by employees of either sex e.g. adoption, paternity, shared parental leave. These should be written as (unisex) gender neutral as your sex is irrelevant.

Even Mat leave policies assume the partner/spouse can be same sex.

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Of course most leave is gender neutral. We don’t have maternity leave though, we have parental leave. And I am not completely happy with the removal of sex from the concept, as giving birth and recovering is not gender neutral. Like I said, our policies are generous enough that it doesn’t make any difference to me, but there is a difference clearly.
(obviously we have antenatal leave which is mother specific)

Sisterpita · 28/08/2023 06:56

@Codlingmoths Sorry if I am being think. But I don’t understand what you mean by “We don’t have maternity leave though, we have parental leave. “

We do have maternity leave which in law is only for women. It is a woman’s choice to end her maternity leave early and opt for Shared Parental Leave which is a different statutory benefit.

Goldencup · 28/08/2023 07:09

Codlingmoths · 28/08/2023 02:04

Of course most leave is gender neutral. We don’t have maternity leave though, we have parental leave. And I am not completely happy with the removal of sex from the concept, as giving birth and recovering is not gender neutral. Like I said, our policies are generous enough that it doesn’t make any difference to me, but there is a difference clearly.
(obviously we have antenatal leave which is mother specific)

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I think Coldlingmoth might be in America some American companies have this now.

Sisterpita · 28/08/2023 07:21

@Goldencup thanks that explains it.

Original poster

Soundbathfan · 29/08/2023 14:41

Dolma · 25/08/2023 09:11

I have just challenged this at my husband's work. They currently don't have a policy of enhanced SPL pay for fathers. It's a small company, and my husband is now senior enough to have the ear of the top management. He politely pointed out that not enhancing SPL pay for fathers was not in line with current market trends, and had some talks with HR about what a better policy might look like. The company are still in the process of writing/approving the new policy, but it's looking like the end result will be two weeks of full pay for paternity leave, and between 4-6 weeks of full pay for fathers taking SPL (and we've been assured the policy will be finalised by the time our baby arrives!). It would have been harder to achieve if my husband had been junior, or if the organisation had been bigger.

You need to be careful with accusations of discrimination here. Firstly, because (depending on exactly how much mat pay your partner's company offer) it isn't discrimination. The Ali v Capita case referred to above was in fact appealed as far as the Court of Appeal. The current legal position is that companies are allowed to give special treatment to women in connection with pregnancy and childbirth, which includes enhancing their pay. The degree to which employers can have a discrepancy between women and men here isn't entirely clear yet. But we can confidently say that anything up to 14 weeks of maternity pay with no equivalent for fathers is legally fine. Comments in the Court of Appeal indicate that extending this to 26 weeks is also probably fine, but not quite as definitive. Anything above 26 weeks is, legally, a complete grey area.

Secondly, because the most likely outcome of scaring companies about possible discrimination here will not be that fathers get their pay enhanced, it will be that mothers get their enhanced pay cut. This has already happened (Network Rail case). This would be a terrible outcome, and it's why everyone is moving very gently in this space, and also why the Working Families organisation intervened in the Ali case on the side of the employer (ie, arguing that equality of SPL pay was not legally necessary).

Hi, thanks so much for sharing this. When would the 4-6 weeks full pay need to be taken?

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Original poster

Soundbathfan · 29/08/2023 14:43

Sdpbody · 25/08/2023 09:42

What pisses me off about NHS/Police Mat leave is that if I was sick... I'd get 6 months full pay as a PO. But I get shit mat pay.

I always wished I could go off with stress 2 weeks before my due date and get 6 months pay. Always drove me mad.

This is very true! Also made me wonder about those who go back after 6 months then go off sick!!

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NinetyPercent · 29/08/2023 14:57

Have you looked at Pregnant Then Screwed - they have lots of advice on both maternity and paternity pay. Also look at the Fatherhood Institute. Both of those orgs, plus others, have a campaign at the moment about better paternity leave and pay.

Shared parental leave came in after my DC was a baby so I don’t know much about that but best of luck. We all have to keep challenging the status quo; sadly many of us don’t realise the inequalities until we’re about to become / are new parents.

Original poster

Soundbathfan · 29/08/2023 15:10

Sisterpita · 25/08/2023 15:29

@Soundbathfan @JenniferBarkley
The starting point for both Mat leave and shared parental leave is the statutory entitlement. Then you look at statutory pay then occupational pay.

The mother has to take SML ( and SMP) from the date she starts maternity leave until 2 weeks after the birth. From that point she can opt for SShPL and SShPP.

The father/partner is entitled to 2 weeks paternity leave & pay - must be taken within 56 days of the birth. Traditionally taken as the 2 weeks after birth mirroring the compulsory 2 weeks SML & SMP.

SShPL is 52 weeks less any weeks of SML I.e. 50 weeks or less depending how much SML is taken before the birth.

You split the SShPL between the mother and partner. It can be taken at the same time or alternating. For example if the mother has 2 weeks SML the father 2 weeks SPL there are 50 weeks SShPL and both could take 25 weeks at the same time - at 27 weeks all entitlement is exhausted. However, they could alternate taking 4 weeks each so covering 12 months. The mother could take the first 26 weeks and the partner the remaining.

Once you have worked out the leave then you apply the pay element. Unlike SMP which is paid 6 weeks @ 9/10ths and 33 weeks @SMP concurrently you have more choice which weeks of SShPL are paid as SShPP. So work out how many weeks of SShPP you have left after deducting weeks SMP and allocate them to the weeks of SShPL. You can have 4 weeks paid 4 weeks unpaid 4 weeks paid etc or both be paid at the same time.

A key factor are the rules around occupational pay e.g. OShPP. Normally this follows the rules for SShPP because OShPP is paid as a top up to the statutory payment. Then you look at working KIT/SPLIT days when you are on unpaid SShPL, remember you may get tax rebates as your earnings will be lower.

Finally remember you accrue annual leave and can use this to extend both you and your partners time at home or phase return to work. Again tax rebates can maximise income from Annual Leave.

I have tried to make this as clear as I can because it is complicated and I don’t know your employers rules, your exact dates etc. What you need to do is think through using the ACAS guide and then talk to yours and DHs HR teams to confirm you have got it right.

HTHs

Thank you. This is incredibly helpful
I'm guessing occupational shared parental pay hasn't caught up with this... it's not mentioned in my nhs policy etc around taking this as shared parental... yet what you say makes sense. Lots of people are saying on this thread that two people cannot be paid at the same time though (even when it is within the 39 week allowance)
I'd pay to attend any webinars you run on this topic haha!

'So work out how many weeks of SShPP you have left after deducting weeks SMP and allocate them to the weeks of SShPL. You can have 4 weeks paid 4 weeks unpaid 4 weeks paid etc or both be paid at the same time'

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Original poster

Soundbathfan · 29/08/2023 15:15

IvyIvyIvy · 26/08/2023 22:34

A lot of shared parental leave policies are pegged to the first six months, which makes it difficult for dads to take. Ideally a policy should be six months anytime in the year after birth, so that dad's can take the second six months. Do challenge. We took it and it was great for our family. Thankfully my husband's workplace allowed six months in the first year but it has prevented him moving jobs as this benefit is too good to leave on the table for future baby plans.

This is absolutely amazing and feels to me as to be as it should. Does he work for a high flying company? If only more places had this

I agree with PPs who say mat pay should also be better (SMP being paid at 50% less than cost of living is ludicrous).

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Original poster

Soundbathfan · 29/08/2023 15:18

grumpytoddler1 · 26/08/2023 22:38

I have no advice but just wanted to vent that the entirety of the bloody SPL legislation needs binning and starting again. It is absolute madness that intelligent people can't work out what they're entitled to and that companies can't work out what they are supposed to be offering.

My husband and I have used SPL twice. Both times we had to explain to our HR departments how it worked as we knew far more than they did. A complete shambles.

I'm reading through this thread trying to come up with a plan. I'm finding it totally baffling! It's making me not want to even bother thinking about it tbh.
Yet there are the odd stories of '6 months to be used flexibly in the first year' or those taking time off together on full pay that make me think there's something worth fighting for here

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Sisterpita · 29/08/2023 16:02

For those still thinking it is unfair for women to get occupational maternity pay but for shared parental leave to only be paid at statutory rate you need to think more widely than your own circumstances.

As per the legislation only women can get statutory and therefore occupational mat pay. In the same way only women are entitled to the protected characteristic of maternity and pregnancy.

Women who give up their Mat leave & pay, including occupational mat pay, for shared parental leave would only be eligible for statutory i.e. treated the same as a man. Equally if a woman was the partner of a pregnant woman they would be eligible for shared parental leave at statutory rate I.e. treated the same as a man. This is why employers can lawfully not give occupational shared parental leave as the comparator is not a woman on Mat pay but a man or woman who is eligible for shared parental pay.

Goldencup · 29/08/2023 18:44

Soundbathfan · 29/08/2023 15:18

I'm reading through this thread trying to come up with a plan. I'm finding it totally baffling! It's making me not want to even bother thinking about it tbh.
Yet there are the odd stories of '6 months to be used flexibly in the first year' or those taking time off together on full pay that make me think there's something worth fighting for here

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So am I right in thinking you do not intend to take your full 6 months of paid maternity leave ? I think this is a very unusual choice, also not one you need to make until after your baby is here. I think you only need to give a month's notice of your intention to return. Why not do the sums again and see how you feel once the baby is here ? As others have said it's half pay + SMP, you also accrue holiday and many NHS trusts will allow you to even out the pay so you get paid the same each month. I think there are some companies offering similar deals to non birthing parents, but this isn't all that widespread nor is it legally protected, by all means your DH can ask.

Original poster

Soundbathfan · 29/08/2023 19:03

I'll very likely be taking the first 6 months (especially as it seems like the SSP option would take me off the mat leave policy therefore meaning I would lose my half pay) but it would be good to overlap for a bit with DH and I not being so financially disadvantaged for doing so.

I was also in my dream world thinking he may get the pay later but as others have said most of the pay is attached to the first 6 months so even if we were both paid according to mat leave policy this wouldn't work.

From reading the responses to this thread there are some very rare exceptions, but it's hard to even work out what to push for here.

I guess where I've got to on reflection is :
A) mat pay needs to be better so birthing people are not so financially disadvantaged
B) partners should get more pay with more flexibility in how this is taken over the year of mat leave/shared parental leave
C) given breastfeeding and birthing it does make sense to have 6 months off
D) it takes a village to raise a child not one birthing person/woman/partner as main carer and the way this is viewed in society and policy is hugely problematic

What I do with this in relation to my DH I have no idea now. I think the first step is simply to clarify whether he gets shared parental pay at stat level since his company don't even have a policy around this.

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GCWorkNightmare · 29/08/2023 19:16

“Birthing person”. 🤮

Hufflepods · 29/08/2023 19:34

GCWorkNightmare · 29/08/2023 19:16

“Birthing person”. 🤮

Given either party could be a woman it’s quite obvious the point OP was making by differentiating between the supporting partner and the partner who has given birth.

Sisterpita · 29/08/2023 19:59

What is wrong with pregnant woman.

GCWorkNightmare · 29/08/2023 20:29

Or “mother”?

Goldencup · 29/08/2023 20:37

GCWorkNightmare · 29/08/2023 20:29

Or “mother”?

Some children have 2 mothers. Some of the gender neutral stuff talks about. " primary parent" is that any better ?

GCWorkNightmare · 29/08/2023 20:47

Gender neutral is a load of 💩 when it comes to growing and delivering a baby, isn’t it? It’s surely the most female thing you can do.

GCWorkNightmare · 29/08/2023 20:48

Hufflepods · 29/08/2023 19:34

Given either party could be a woman it’s quite obvious the point OP was making by differentiating between the supporting partner and the partner who has given birth.

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So you have “birth mother” and “other mother”

GCWorkNightmare · 29/08/2023 20:49

or non-birth mother

annahay · 29/08/2023 20:50

Sisterpita · 29/08/2023 16:02

For those still thinking it is unfair for women to get occupational maternity pay but for shared parental leave to only be paid at statutory rate you need to think more widely than your own circumstances.

As per the legislation only women can get statutory and therefore occupational mat pay. In the same way only women are entitled to the protected characteristic of maternity and pregnancy.

Women who give up their Mat leave & pay, including occupational mat pay, for shared parental leave would only be eligible for statutory i.e. treated the same as a man. Equally if a woman was the partner of a pregnant woman they would be eligible for shared parental leave at statutory rate I.e. treated the same as a man. This is why employers can lawfully not give occupational shared parental leave as the comparator is not a woman on Mat pay but a man or woman who is eligible for shared parental pay.

Some places will honour the occupation mat pay offer when you switch to shared parental leave. My work were very clear that I'd get the same money whether I was on mat pay or spp.

Hufflepods · 29/08/2023 20:57

GCWorkNightmare · 29/08/2023 20:48

So you have “birth mother” and “other mother”

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It’s not really up to you.

GCWorkNightmare · 29/08/2023 21:03

Just so galling coming from a) a medic and b) a straight woman. There really shouldn’t be any confusion here.

maybe you’re happy being referred to as a birthing parent, lactator, menstruator or cervix-haver but you don’t see men being called testicle-owners.

Sisterpita · 29/08/2023 21:15

@annahay but do they only offer statutory to partners or do they give enhanced to them too?

@Hufflepods @GCWorkNightmare FYI, the Ministerial and Maternity Allowances Act 2021 uses the terms mother and expectant mother https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2021/5/enacted

There was a huge amount of debate and the House of Lords managed to get the term mother rather than person into the legislation. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56204865.amp

Additionally in 2020 the Court of Appeal ruled that the person who gives birth is recorded as the mother on birth certificates. https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2020/559.html

These two cases firmly established that in UK law a mother is the person who carries a baby and then gives birth.

Ministerial and other Maternity Allowances Act 2021

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2021/5/enacted