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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Raging about shared parental pay - has anyone challenged this (vs mat leave policy)

206 replies

Soundbathfan · 24/08/2023 23:22

The nhs mat policy whilst better than many is much crapper than many too
My husband gets better mat leave in his medium sized private tech company than I do.
His company don't have a shared parental pay policy which I am angry about. He has asked about this and has been sent a shared parental leave notification form but this doesn't include anything about pay (which I'm assuming will be stat rate)
Other similar companies to his DO offer comparative mat and parental pay.
Has anyone ever challenged an employer on their offer and lack of comparability to mat policy?
He is the first person ever to have asked about this in his male dominated organisation
Thanks for any advice you have :)

OP posts:
JC89 · 27/08/2023 08:27

It would be nice if it was the same for maternity pay and shared parental pay, but the statutory pay is the same and is all they are legally obliged to give you. Any extra payments that either parent gets are a bonus. There is nothing to stop a company saying "we'll pay the same additional payments for maternity and shared parental leave, but that will be lower than the current maternity pay". So you could try asking (it's worth bringing up, if no-one asks nothing will change) but make sure they don't increase shared parental pay at the cost of reducing maternity pay!

Ibetthatyoulookgoodon · 27/08/2023 08:44

FloorWipes · 26/08/2023 23:06

It’s been explained several times in the thread.

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I’m not sure you have really… being put out you didn’t get a better rate of pay when on maternity leave doesn’t seem like an explanation for why men shouldn’t have any paid time off to spend with a newborn. It’s not a zero sum game after all.

FloorWipes · 27/08/2023 08:50

Ibetthatyoulookgoodon · 27/08/2023 08:44

I’m not sure you have really… being put out you didn’t get a better rate of pay when on maternity leave doesn’t seem like an explanation for why men shouldn’t have any paid time off to spend with a newborn. It’s not a zero sum game after all.

Show quote history

I've actually not attempted to explain the reason why maternity leave is different to paternity leave, as others had already done a good job and linked to the court ruling which had done the same.

What I did do was explain why "it's not a zero sum game" is overly simplistic.

And I haven't seen anyone say men shouldn't have any paid time off.

Duckskitbank · 27/08/2023 09:41

Ibetthatyoulookgoodon · 26/08/2023 23:01

Why do you think the pay shoukd be different out of interest? He is an employee taking time off to care for his newborn child, why should the employer differentiate between men doing that and women?

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The mother needs to recover from pregnancy and birth.
The newborn baby needs it’s mother in the 4th trimester and, where possible should be breast fed on demand much longer.
The mother- baby dyad is vitally important and shared parental leave doesn’t recognise this.
I know plenty of people don’t share my opinion and I don’t care so don’t @ me.

Ibetthatyoulookgoodon · 27/08/2023 09:46

Duckskitbank · 27/08/2023 09:41

The mother needs to recover from pregnancy and birth.
The newborn baby needs it’s mother in the 4th trimester and, where possible should be breast fed on demand much longer.
The mother- baby dyad is vitally important and shared parental leave doesn’t recognise this.
I know plenty of people don’t share my opinion and I don’t care so don’t @ me.

Show quote history

I suspect it’s very uncommon for women to choose to go back to work in the 4th trimester and I agree that in most cases wouldn’t seem beneficial for mother or child. However, that doesn’t in anyway make the whole policy a bad idea.

Letsgetouttahere2023 · 27/08/2023 09:50

NHS mat pay is actually really shit comparatively nowadays. (Not the point of the thread i know).

Women need to educate themselves , don't work for NHS is a good start

Letsgetouttahere2023 · 27/08/2023 09:53

Soundbathfan · 25/08/2023 13:59

Apple... I won't be up shit creek financially. I can and will pick up private work and I do have savings. My point is why should this disparity exist in the first place.
The latter end of your post is inspiring and DH and I will be raising this with his employer in the hope of a more forward thinking future even if it doesn't directly affect us.

You are not allowed to work , privately or otherwise, while on parental leave

Original poster
Soundbathfan · 27/08/2023 10:02

Letsgetout... I have been told by HR that as long as I stick to my pre-existing pattern of private work, doing so while on mat leave is fine and won't affect my nhs or statutory entitlement. Do you have info to suggest otherwise?

OP posts:
Viviennemary · 27/08/2023 10:06

Krustykrabpizza · 26/08/2023 22:56

Your partner isn't taking maternity leave though

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It's not archaic it's common sense. Men aren't on maternity leave as they don't have babies. It's just silly.

Original poster
Soundbathfan · 27/08/2023 10:10

For those saying men can't be mothers blah blah blah don't have babies, what do you say about surrogacy with gay couples for example, lesbian couples where there are two mothers.
Off topic completely I know but this traditionalist rhetoric is getting a bit tired.

OP posts:
FloorWipes · 27/08/2023 10:11

Soundbathfan · 27/08/2023 10:02

Letsgetout... I have been told by HR that as long as I stick to my pre-existing pattern of private work, doing so while on mat leave is fine and won't affect my nhs or statutory entitlement. Do you have info to suggest otherwise?

What you say is possible. Described clearly here: https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/what-work-can-you-do-during-maternity-adoption-parental-leave/

Working during maternity and family leave and while receiving pay - Working Families

One of the most common questions we receive on our helpline is whether you can work during maternity or statutory family leave (Adoption or Shared Parental Leave) without ending your leave or pay early.

https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/what-work-can-you-do-during-maternity-adoption-parental-leave

Original poster
Soundbathfan · 27/08/2023 10:13

Letsgetouttahere2023 · 27/08/2023 09:50

NHS mat pay is actually really shit comparatively nowadays. (Not the point of the thread i know).

Women need to educate themselves , don't work for NHS is a good start

Indeed, it's comparatively crap but thought to be excellent. Even my sister nhs nurse for 10 years thought it was full pay for 6 months.
As did my (male) band 8d service lead..

OP posts:
FloorWipes · 27/08/2023 10:14

Soundbathfan · 27/08/2023 10:10

For those saying men can't be mothers blah blah blah don't have babies, what do you say about surrogacy with gay couples for example, lesbian couples where there are two mothers.
Off topic completely I know but this traditionalist rhetoric is getting a bit tired.

It feels very insulting to describe people grappling with biological reality - and sometimes frankly the biological horror - of child bearing as being "traditionalist".

I really don't think these other scenarios are relevant.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 27/08/2023 11:11

By this logic, we could give childfree people some extra paid leave as well. After all, it isn't one or the other. As soon as we realise that anyone could go off on paid leave, not only mothers, fathers etc. discrimination on such grounds will surely evaporate.

LOL, this is MN. I’ve had to argue with posters on here who believe that childfree people don’t need annual leave, let alone extra paid leave.

Goldencup · 27/08/2023 11:43

Appleofmyeye2023 · 25/08/2023 13:52

You’re a doctor 😱surely you of all people know that maternity leave is as much about mothers recovery as babies care. Ok, post 6 months then it’s more about babies
BUT when I had my dcs in 1990s, we got 29 weeks (I think but roughly 6 months) by law. Nhs policy was unpaid after that but eqllyan exception. In my private company it was this 6 months max, and no parent wrap leave at all
the law was changed to give rights to mothers to up to 12 months to encourage breastfeeding and dealing with many mothers (1 in10) with PND (including myself) who were still trying to deal with mental health issues- I went back to work with barely treated pnd as had only just been finally diagnosed at 4 months post partum

fathers leave should include an element of 2 things imho

  1. caring for baby once 6 months maternity period needed for mother ends- up to 6 months at SMP
  2. up to 3-4 emergency leave during first 6 months at request to deal with care for family and mother in emergency situations like PND, prem babies, birth injuries etc . This should’ve paid at same level as maternity leave pay for mothers in same company

it might feel “unfair”. Seems to me you’re pissed off and disappointed that you’re assumption your dh would be paid same as mothers in his company is incorrect and you’ve realised too late you’re financially buggered

o agree with other, DH has nothing to loose to ask about a policy change , but company can ignore. Remember this, most maternity rights were achieved by mothers fighting for them, putting heads on line - but in most cases they had nothing to loose- quite literally if they failed in the objective they’d have to give up work anyway . This was case when me and 3 other mums took on rights to work part time with my company ate d of 6 month maternity - id have had to quit if we’d failed. We won and I’m incredibly proud that I helped path the way for future generations of women in my company. But me and 3 other mums were “high fliers” and valuable assets so we had influence

I think father leave is lagging behind because most men will not stick their necks on line all the way to risk loosing their job , because they don’t have same stakes. They’re not breastfeeding, suffering with birth injuries or PND etc

your argument solution lies with your dh actions- how far and willing is he to push this and how much leveredge has he . He may not succeed for this child . But a small stone rolling can gain momentum to make a change for your next child or other fathers

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👋what a great and insightful post. DH was one of those prepared to put his neck on the line 15 years ago. He did end up having to quit that job, but I like to think things are slowly changing now.

BlairWaldorfOG · 27/08/2023 11:59

Hi OP, we've been in a similar position. I was the main earner, husband's organisation had very good occupational maternity pay, we wanted to share leave as I didn't want such a prolonged period away from work but he would only get statutory as there was no policy for occupational pay when shared parental leave was requested... He challenged it at the time in writing via HR and ACAS, got nowhere as he was the first person to request the SPL. We split it anyway and saved to my cover it but it felt incredibly unfair.

This was about 7 years ago now and I'd have hoped things would have improved so it's disappointing the situation you're in. My employer has made amendments and shared parental leave is paid in the same way as maternity leave and we can do the same back and forth set up you've described.

Someone has to be the first to challenge it so please encourage your partner to. An email to HR would likely be the best route, handy to have things in writing in case ACAS need to be pulled in too! Good luck x

annahay · 27/08/2023 12:01

Ljhunt · 25/08/2023 06:44

i dont really get what you’re wanting? To access the maternity pay available at his company…?! I’m a teacher so mat pay not great compared with a corporate organisation. My husband works at a corporate. He gets 6 weeks paid pat leave. I’ll go back after 6-7 months (having spend most of that time on SMP) and he’ll then take a month or so of shared parental, this is only paid statuatory. I don’t see how I could expect it to be otherwise? He’s used up his pat leave already and at that stage of my mat leave I’ll be well into SMP

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Does your school not offer occupational maternity pay? I don’t go to statutory until after 18 weeks. And I can stretch this out using shared parental leave to get paid in the holidays.

Pairofshorts · 27/08/2023 13:36

It seems an important question here is what maternity leave is primarily for -

  1. Is it to look after the baby, bond etc (to give the next generation the best start in life)?
  2. Is it to support the mother/birthing partner to heal and recover?

If the answer is at least partially 2, we could ask why most employers wouldn’t allow this period to be taken as sick leave instead (which is often paid more generously than maternity pay)? If it’s genuinely not realistic to expect a mother to work in the months post-birth and there is a need to recover, then how is it different to not being able to work for a few months after major surgery, say?

Moreover, wouldn’t having the father/non-birthing partner around to share the load on 1 to support the mother with 2?

So - what is mat leave fundamentally for?

FloorWipes · 27/08/2023 14:05

Pairofshorts · 27/08/2023 13:36

It seems an important question here is what maternity leave is primarily for -

  1. Is it to look after the baby, bond etc (to give the next generation the best start in life)?
  2. Is it to support the mother/birthing partner to heal and recover?

If the answer is at least partially 2, we could ask why most employers wouldn’t allow this period to be taken as sick leave instead (which is often paid more generously than maternity pay)? If it’s genuinely not realistic to expect a mother to work in the months post-birth and there is a need to recover, then how is it different to not being able to work for a few months after major surgery, say?

Moreover, wouldn’t having the father/non-birthing partner around to share the load on 1 to support the mother with 2?

So - what is mat leave fundamentally for?

No! Maternity is just that - maternity. There is nothing comparable. Not surgery, not sickness, not paternity. Stop trying to make it interchangeable with other things.

FloorWipes · 27/08/2023 14:14

Trying to get men a better deal, trying to make maternity leave into sick pay because it's better compensated all comes back to the same issue....Mothers are not adequately compensated during mat leave!!

Hufflepods · 27/08/2023 14:18

Let me guess the women who think men are “playing at childcare” by taking months off to care for their infant are married to men who do fuck all in their house?

FloorWipes · 27/08/2023 14:21

Hufflepods · 27/08/2023 14:18

Let me guess the women who think men are “playing at childcare” by taking months off to care for their infant are married to men who do fuck all in their house?

Categorically false.

Hufflepods · 27/08/2023 14:22

FloorWipes · 27/08/2023 14:21

Categorically false.

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You’re just dim then?

Are SAHM’s “playing at childcare”?

Why is looking after children only valid if you’re a woman and not a man?

FloorWipes · 27/08/2023 14:33

Hufflepods · 27/08/2023 14:22

You’re just dim then?

Are SAHM’s “playing at childcare”?

Why is looking after children only valid if you’re a woman and not a man?

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I personally never used that phrase and I never made the argument you just described.

But I reject being called a traditionalist and claims that I must have a useless husband because neither of those things are true, but these are some of the unfortunate arguments put forward to explain why people don't support equating maternity and paternity leave. Or that we are dumb. Strong points.

You can go back and read my points to understand the actual reasons and counter them specifically if you like.

Mswest · 27/08/2023 17:48

We did shared leave in 2016 and my work didn't have a clue about it and my husband's wasn't much better. I don't think by law they need to offer pay just leave? Which is a bit rubbish really, i ended up being off for 6 months and him 2 months and it took us a long time to recover financially. I think if a company offers the husband actual maternity pay as well as the leave it's simply a perk of working for that company rather than a legal requirement. Might be wrong though - we did it and I still don't fully understand it! We are both public sector but if he had been the woman he would have got 6 months full pay it makes no sense at the very least all public sector should get the same imo.