Batshit neighbours - right of way

[Jeelypieces20storeys]

Outing if anyone knows me but past caring. I live at the end of a terrace. We have a right of access over the bottom of 2 neighbours gardens (which has been fenced off from their "main' garden to create a pathway) to get to a communal garden shared by 7 houses. Neighbours whose garden we have to cross never use the garden, and made a point of saying so, so they don't have to help maintain it. Just used by the small children of 3 of the 7 houses.
The 2 neighbours have become v possessive over the path after we weeded & upgraded it (as apparently we are "stealing their land") and put a new high fence at entrance to communal garden which opens into the path (this is relevant).
My young child, 2 Dan's and neighbours child were playing in communal garden. My sis went to check on them & opened gate & stood & watched them for 3 mins max. Neighbour 1 came out & went to neighbour 2's garden who then came out yelling and screaming that the path was not to be used, she was "loitering" on their land & communal garden is a drying green not for children playing in. (It has swings, a trampoline etc & she's NEVER been in it ). Gate & lock are so high the kids can't reach & sis was just checking they hadn't got locked in.
It all got a bit heated. This is just bat shittery, yes? Does anyone know the rules of right of access? The kids werent playing IN the pathway.
Thanks if u got thru this. Am I BU to use path or is neighbour correct?

We need the wording on your deeds really to see what it says about access to that area

They are being unreasonable. You maintained a path, you didn't change it. Everyone else uses it, and they only have an issue with you using it. You are entitled to walk down there, it clearly isn't a drying green, and they shouldn't be shouting at anyone.

So I have spent quite a bit of time on the garden law forum (which I recommend) understanding law for RoW. I am both a user and owner.

My understanding is that no one is required to maintain the ROW. The owner can’t block it deliberately, but are not required to do things like cut back plants. The user is allowed to maintain the right of way (repair surface, trim overhanging plants) but not improve it. So you can’t tarmac an Earth track without the owners permission for example.

There is also no required speed on a right off way! I really don’t think you have done anything wrong at all OP. The question is how you deal with the neighbours going forward?

We live in a terrace with a communal right of way. They take a bit of give and take and those that can't cope with this type of living need to refrain from buying houses with rights of way attached. I can't see that the op has committed any great crime and her neighbours sound intolerant. They might find people moving across the bottom of their gardens annoying but that is what they signed up for.

They should have done due diligence before they bought or rented the property. Personally l would trundle across a few times a week at least as a point of principle 🤷‍♀️

Well, quite. What is the minimum speed limit across them?! What is the maximum?

Absolutely and maybe even add in a little wave and exaggerated smile too 😜

Yep. I can even offer the service of my husband -for a time he developed a weird limp / leg drag after his 2nd covid jab. Particularly comical as he is 6’3 with long limbs. Sure he can perform it on demand

They do sound bat-shit. I'm not sure they can stop anyone in the other houses accessing communal land. This includes your son, he has as much right to access it as anyone.

There might be restrictions on how that land is used, can you look at your deeds? If it doesn't specify how the land is to be used then carry on and ignore.

I'd be ignoring them anyway. What horrible neighbours when all you need is to exercise your rights of access to the safe communal garden for your disabled child. Some people have no compassion.

Agree.

The better person approaches the neighbours and tries to find a resolution. I’d have replaced the slabs and cleaned everyone’s path, but I’d have knocked on first and informed them - asked if it was okay. I’d apologise about this - you don’t have to mean it, but it’s the smart thing to do and shows a willingness to resolve it.

Sounds like everyone’s hopping mad right now, but a little compromise on usage will probably resolve this and life’s too short for these mini turf wars.

You will need to check your deeds and possibly your neighbours deeds regarding the specific wording and any conditions regarding the use of the ROW and the communal garden. This is very easy to do online and only costs a couple of quid. This should hopefully clarify whether it is specified that the land can only be used as a drying green only.

The deeds may also confirm whether your neighbours are responsible for contributing towards maintenance for the communal garden. My understanding is that just because they have decided they want to use it, this does not mean they are exempt from maintenance costs. Therefore, If the land is technically supposed to be used as a drying green only, it would be in your interest and the others who use the communal garden to have a sensible conversation with your neighbour to say you are happy to be flexible regarding them not contributing to maintenance costs if they are then happy to be flexible regarding how the land is used.

Complete nonsense up thread regarding crossing the row in "seconds". It is all about reasonableness. However, you may only use the ROW for access to your destination.

Much as I would love to do this, I want to try & de-escalate the situation. Plus the fence separating their private gardens from the path area is 6 foot high, solid and you can't see through it!

You need to go and discuss this with them again. You've already explained/ apologised for the slabs it would seem, so they should have been appeased. They have no excuse for being shouty and unpleasant. I would have a chat about it and if this isn't resolved satisfactorily and they remain difficult or obstructive I would be taking it further

I am very late to this thread but I agree that what @Wildlifeinthedark says is correct.

The OP, @Jeelypieces20storeys owns the "dominant" property that has rights over the "servient" neighbour's land.

In this situation, the neighbours are not required to maintain the right of way at all but the OP is certainly allowed to maintain the path to a suitable standard - and, yes, this does include weeding and replacing broken slabs.

I'm sorry to say this to all the people, like those below, who think that the OP isn't allowed to replace broken slabs in other people's gardens in this situation, but you are wrong. It has been the law in England & Wales for the last 242 years (since 1781) that the dominant property owner (ie the OP):-

"...is entitled to maintain and repair the way and, if he wants the way to be kept in repair, must himself bear the cost"

Taylor v Whitehead (1781) 2 Doug KB. Cited in Carter v Cole [2006] EWCA Civ 398

To the following contributors, I'm sorry but you really are wrong on this point:-

@akkakk
@maybebalancing
@Aprilx
@Boomboom22
@Tinkerbyebye
@ImABox
@applesandmares

@calmcoco
@DiscoBeat
@Hufflepods
@YetMoreNewBeginnings
@OhLookIveChangedMyNameAgain
@IfYouDontAsk

Also, to those who said that her sisters couldn't use the path, anyone who has a lawful reason to access the communal garden from the OP's property - basically anyone other than a burglar - can freely use the path.

ps There was also another case that said that rights of way can actually be improved if they do not meet the required standard. So, for example, if the right of way includes vehicles but it is just an earth track, then the owner of the dominant property can improve the right of way:-

"If you grant to me over a field a right of carriage-way to my house, I may enter upon your field and make over it a carriage-way sufficient to support the ordinary traffic of a carriage-way, otherwise the grant is of no use to me, because my carriage would sink up to the naves of the wheels in a week or two of wet weather."

Newcomen v Coulson (1877) 5 ChD 133 cited in Nationwide Building Society v James Beauchamp (A Firm) [2001] EWCA Civ 275

I would

1. use it daily
2. I would go and check on ds every 10 minutes when he’s using it. He can’t open the gate, what are you supposed to do?
3. take the deeds, consult a lawyer and have them write a letter explaining any reasonable limits on time taken to traverse the path, and that you will stay within those, any reasonable limits on standing at the gate holding it open including reasonable adjustments for disability for your son so extra time for both.
4. Letter to include Reasonable maintenance requirements- whether you should or shouldn’t fix anything or weed, noting historical precedent has impacted your behaviour if incorrect.
5. Letter to say that my client would prefer not to get the police involved but for the safety, health and quality of life for her son, she will if necessary and if your behaviour impacts on his right to use the garden.

I’d take notes from @Another2Cats excellent post to the lawyer also! Basically they are obviously batshit, you need to communicate that you aren’t going to roll over or they will keep having a go at you. You have rights, use them.

OP - I see where you are coming from. Your neighbours are batshit crazy. Personally, I would try one last time to have a civil conversation with them - encourage them to let you know what the real issue is. There is something else going on and your sis was their breaking point.

In the unlikely event they behave like adults, then great! You will have something to respond to.

It is more likely you will have to go legal on their ass. Get a solicitor to draft them a letter that reminds them of their legal obligations to maintain the pathway, keep it obstruction free and contribute to shared area maintenance.

Don't be disheartened - there is a trend on MN that an OP will be misinterpreted and there is often no way to avoid get your arse handed to you a plate. There is nothing like - breaching somebody's rights to bring out the best in people on MN.

💐

Having right of access across your land is one thing, but I'm afraid I'd also be upset if someone was weeding in my garden, then replaced some broken slabs, not to mention standing in my garden looking through the gate.

Even if there is a fence to separate the right of access 'pathway' to the main garden, it's still their garden.

I do think them calling it a land grab is a bit of a stretch, but always ask permission before attempting to do these things. You might find they're a bit more forgiving with prior permission, although I'm sure it will take a while.

I stand corrected from a legal standpoint (see Another2Cats' post), but from a moral POV I still think you should talk to the landowners first before. It does wonders for a neighbourly relationship!

No idea what to do about the tall gate though.

I don't think your neighbours are being too unreasonable, to be honest. If the right of way is on their land, I don't think you have a right to be messing around with it or changing paving stones. I also don't really understand why the kids need to be using the green if you've all got gardens. I'd also be annoyed if you were standing around on the ROW looking into my garden.

this is an OLD THREAD maybe not quite a ZOMBIE but nearly.

nice legal update today, (interestign points I didn't know) but the rest of the thread is from 24th August