To think Lucy Letby should be made to attend court for the sentencing

[Viviennemary]

I know there are other threads on this terrible case. But I just read she has refused to attend court for the sentencing which is to be on Monday morning. The judge said he does not have the power to force her to attend. Can't see she will ever be allowed out of prison. And rightly so.

It's not about whether she specifically would put up a fight.

It's that if the law is changed to force her to do this then the law is changed to force everyone to do this.

Which means officers would then have to deal with a 6 foot 6 20 stone ex rugby player throwing his weight around if he doesn't want to go.

@NOELScosmichelicopter then you are what I would call a sympathiser. They are human and they don't deserve to breath.

What has @NOELScosmichelicopter said that showed sympathy to Letby? Can you quote directly or screengrab?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/inmate-who-kicked-prison-guard-to-death-locked-up-for-life-a3225381.html

This is why some of us are saying it isn't safe to force people to attend. This man was in handcuffs and still managed to kill a serco guard. Ok LL probably couldn't manage this, or even try, but if we make it compulsory for her, we make it so for everyone.

Serco got fined over 2 million pounds for this death. I expect they will now refuse to undertake unnecessary transfers.

Nobody that actually understands or cares about the real practicalities or impact on staff and their families who would have to facilitate that is suggesting that.

Some people will probably disagree with me but yes OP I agree, all defendants in criminal cases should be made to attend court for all proceedings, not just their sentencing hearing .

There should be no choice. Handcuff then and take them to the court room. I don’t see how that can’t happen.

the next thing will be that criminals will be refusing to be arrested!

Please tell me you don't think it would simply be a case of using handcuffs? You're another one who hasn't engaged with the practicalities of how this actually works when a prisoner resists being moved. Tell us more about the 'etc'.

Indeed, who cares about actual humans doing dangerous jobs when the baying mob want to see a look on someone’s face (that they won’t even see except on a sketch)

Yes because we all know handcuffs instantly paralyse whoever is wearing them 🙄

Not read all the replies, but if being dragged there kicking and screaming, being physically retrained by however many shackles or other means is the only way, then so be it. There should be no right under law to refuse to attend these hearings.

When people say this they are looking at it from a rational ‘normal’ balanced mind. People’s brains and motivations are so varied and the ‘explanation’, were one ever to be given, would never be satisfactory or understood by the general public. As humans we like to categorise people into ‘good‘ and ‘evil’ but there are really just people who cause great harm and those that do not. And those in the first category trying to understand the second is simply not possible. That is why we label people ‘evil’ because it is the only way we can make sense of such behaviour.

@WeetabixTowels anyone who fights for human rights for anyone who does these despicable crimes are sympathisers. They don't have humanly emotions and feelings so why we saying it's her right to not attend. All humans rights should be left at the door when you kill babies. They shouldn't get to choose/decide whether they can attend. Who made that daft rule up?

Yep. If she was dragged in and caused a scene she'd be an attention- seeking bitch causing disruption to the court.

If she voluntarily attended and said nothing and demonstrated no emotion she'd be a heartless bitch.

If she wept and was upset, she'd be a psychopathic bitch only upset about her conviction.

There's nothing she could do that would satisfy everyone.

I think (I don't know) that LL is guilty but I can understand why she wouldn't want to attend the sentencing. It would not be productive in any way for anyone.

Your major concern seems to be fighting against reality.

Risk to officers arresting a violent criminal = high

Risk to public if the violent criminal is not arrested = high

therefore on balance it is acceptable to ask people to risk their life to do this

Risk to officers dragging a violent criminal to court for sentencing who doesnt want to go = high

Risk to public if violent criminal isn't at sentencing = zero

A decent, caring society would not ask people to put their lives and physical health at risk when there is zero risk to the public

Why not bring back the Code of Hammurabi whilst you are at it.

Do you want Letby to turn us back into a brutal and vengeful society? Why does she get to determine what sort of society we are?

A lot of us are arguing for the safety of the officers being made to "drag people by their hair, taser them, strap them to boards, tie them in wheel chairs and gag them"

Anyone who fights that human beings should be forced to do such things when there is zero risk to the public if they don't do them need to look to their own empathy and feelings

Nope. Nothing I've said has sympathised with LL.

If you erroneously think I'm a sympathiser and don't deserve to breathe, you've lost perspective.

I think it might be productive for you to take a break from MN and the Internet as you are losing perspective and accusing posters of heinous things which are not true.

You can't force someone to listen and engage with victim impact statements and sentencing remarks. You can force someone to be physically present, at the risk of injury to them and the staff involved, but you can't make them sit quietly and be respectful. So it just isn't worth it.

The power a judge has to deal with disruption is to have people removed from the court. So the last thing they want is to keep the disruption present while families are trying to read their statements, or they are delivering the judgement. How would anyone benefit from someone being held down in a chair, screaming and swearing and pissing themselves and trying to bite the staff, while the sentencing goes on.

What if the defendant says they're having chest pains. Yes they're probably lying, but do you as the judge decide that and ignore them, risking that they will die from a heart attack in your court without medical attention? What if they pretend to have a fit, or fall unconscious? Given sentencing remarks are broadcast live for high profile cases, as they are right now, what if the defendant just repeatedly loudly swears throughout the sentencing.

@NOELScosmichelicopter no I think those who are more bothered about her rights not to be there are disrespectful to those little babies. Your showing sympathy to her rights. That's what I mean.

Yes agree with this. Very well put.

If they don't have "humanly emotions and feelings" what is to be gained by her being there? SHe won't feel remorse, or upset or angry.

And what about the human rights of the people who's job it would be to drag dangerous criminals in to court?

Loving how you don’t give a shit about the physical or mental health of the staff that would have to satisfy your desire to see LL reaction in court.

Funny that you care about babies that LL that killed but don't care about the children of the staff that could be injured in forcing LL into court.

Yeah you're awesome, hand claps to you 👏

Human rights apply to all humans. No exception. If we start omitting certain humans from those rights for subjective reasons we soon become like countries where people are killed people for their life choices, such as who they choose to love, because the state sees it as ‘wrong’.

Yes. What is the relevance?