If you enjoy drag, to ask why?

[ForestGoblin]

I don't get it at all. It looks to me like a crude mockery of women. Even on the presumably somewhat sanitised RuPaul, the word for a "realistic" (ie could pass as a woman) drag queen is "fish"... A reference to being so womanly it's as though they have a vagina. I feel like they hate women and are performing all the things they find ridiculous about us in a really hammed up way. Making us seem bitchy and preening.

Also, more fundamentally, I don't understand the entertainment factor of "oh haha it's a man who looks a bit like a lady haha he's in a dress haha". So? On which note, how on earth are the lady boys of Bangkok still going strong with their tour. Don't give me oo the costumes and skillful songs and dances - as if people would go to see "the costumed dancers of Bangkok". There's some wow factor to seeing "ladyboys" specifically.

But loads of my friends love it. So it can't actually be as bad as I think. (Can it?)

Yanbu - drag is offensive to women or just not entertaining

Yabu - drag is awesome

@almostoverthehill "Yes, it is. But why not Cheryl Poll? It's a joke about vaginas, forgotters.

There you’ve said it yourself it’s a joke"

Two things here. Are there any circumstances where calling a vagina a "hole" is not misogynistic? And how would you explain the joke in a family setting?

I can’t even get worked up about it, especially at this time of the morning lol

@almostoverthehill "I can’t even get worked up about it, especially at this time of the morning lol"

Fair enough. I mean,you were "worked up" enough to make other posts at this time of the morning. But not to answer the question nobody wants to answer! Presumably because you can't.

All of that can be done without the 'woman' persona. No one is offended by the sparkle, dancing or puns.

"No one is offended by the sparkle, dancing or puns."

Well, I am actually offended by some of the puns!

If you don’t want to be called out by women, don’t put a dress on and then call yourself “Hole”.

You're right.

My point was that it's the whole thing of appropriating 'woman' rather than what they are doing. Just dress up and do fabulous make up an dance and lip synch and make puns without associating it with women.

Is drag not offensive to trans women? Isn't the joke with drag, ha, ha, ha, look a man dressed as a woman, how funny and ridiculous?

No-one gives a shit about offending women, never have, but offending trans women is a crime I believe. So why is this piss taking still being permitted? Why are the TRA not all over drag acts?

Yea this is the point that I come back to. I know people say “oh but there are drag kings too”, but I’ve seen very few drag kings advertised in real life. If it’s all about the jokes/clothes/make up then why do they have to be women/queens?

as an aside, but maybe related, isn’t there a gender neutral drag term? Seems to be the only space I haven’t seen that in?

I dont find it funny or entertaining but then i don't really like pantomime either.

I don't really object to the much milder pantomine version but find the heavily sexualised fetishy version a bit gross. The pantomime side of it I think i tolerate because i understand the historical context, women weren't really allowed om stage so you'd have a man playing a woman. Its sort of easy to see how that evolved from having fresh faced boys with the intention of it being realistic, to realising people found it funny if you had a burly bloke almost deliberately not really being feminine at all. Its silliness rather than being overtly sexualised.

I think the comparison to blackface is spot on. I'm thinking about Little Britain's "Spa" ladies, Matt Lucas' "Bubbles" and David Williams' "Desiree".

There's recognition that David Walliams shouldn't black up and take the piss out of black women. However, the rest is seemingly fine, the fat shaming (how funny, she thinks she's attractive but she's overweight), the ageism (how funny, she thinks she's attractive but she's over 40) and then laughing AT the man they're fighting over because (how funny, he finds these ugly women attractive).

RuPaul and the show is (or has been), IMO, misogynistic. Good to see a bit more diversity recently on it.

That doesn't mean all drag is. There was a show on C4 called something like Drag SOS where the drag artists were kind, funny and supportive and it included a bio queen.

Personally I'm left cold by drag most of the time. Yes sometimes the transformations through make up and costumes are impressive and I can appreciate that, I'm just not into it.

I have encountered some funny drag acts though, and enjoyed them in the same way I would another comedian.

@cuckyplunt "If you don’t want to be called out by women, don’t put a dress on and then call yourself “Hole”."

Particularly to rhyme with "Cole" a real life woman.

The sexualisation is gross. If only for the reason that it highlights how unequal society still is if you're born female.

A women would be judged and deemed lesser for dressing like a sex worker. We do not have the same freedoms as men. We would be viewed as easy, cheap, disgusting."Fishy!" Lesser.

Also, if we dress like sex workers, are we not asking for everything we get if we attract toxic male attention? That's still the pervading thinking. We still warn our daughters about keeping safe. Who are we warning them about? Other women? Why are parents not drumming into their sons the importance of equality and respect for women. If you see a drunk, scantily clad women, help her to get home safe rather than rape her!

If you're a drag artist, don't add to the slag stereotype that makes us victims of toxic masculinity within our patriarchal society. If you truly love women, help and support us to be viewed as equals.

Little Britain would never be made now. Pretty much all of it would be considered offensive and unacceptable.

Personally I don't see the comparison with drag as a whole though. Yes some drag acts tell offensive misogynistic jokes, just like some comedians do. But we don't say all comedians are offensive because of it.

Little Britain was so shite. I never understood why it was so popular at the time. just not even funny at all

The good ones are extremely witty. I know a few personally as I'm a gay woman and move in those circles. Of the ones I know, their real personalities are often a product of trauma and they use humour to overcome it. They're also extremely kind and respectful.
I enjoy drag kings for entirely different reasons and am angry that transmen are cropping up in that field.

Little Britain would never survive today. It’s a very unfortunate product of its time. I don’t know anyone that wouldn’t cringe about it now. It’s awful.

That is genuinely revolting to me. I think those names shows a lack of ability to understand women as anything other than things. Just objects to poke fun at. Nothing but pregnancy, stilettos, holes and grotesque makeup.

PPs have mentioned pantomime and I think the reason I don't mind that but find drag nauseating is simply that one isn't overtly sexualised and the other is.

I don't mind some fat bloke dressing up as Widow Twanky - the whole joke is that they're NOT sexually alluring at all (but might think they are). They deliberately aren't made to mimic a sexy woman, but a very unsexy one. We all know it's Les Dawson (in the old days!) and that's the joke. And as others have said, it's all balanced up the the Principal Boy who's a woman.

But RuPaul (he's pretty tasteful in the bigger picture) etc where the drag artists are meant to be like sexy, attractive women makes me queasy, I'm afraid. I just can't stop thinking that under the slinky dresses there is male genitalia.

Personally I wouldn't expect to ban it - if that's what amuses you, fine, as long as it's not on mainstream TV or in primary schools. It should be a definite minority interest. I think it's just going to add to the total confusion that young people might have about sexuality in general.

But then I'm tired of small minorities having such prominence in culture nowadays. Drag is surely a real minority interests and it seems to be shoved in our faces everywhere at the moment.

Went to a drag hosted Disco Bingo night a while ago. Planning on going again if anyone fancies it? 😜

If you don’t want to be called out by women, don’t put a dress on and then call yourself “Hole”.

Tell that to Courtney Love

Ha!

I was genuinely pissed off to see yet another twatish bloke prancing about in a dress and loads of slap thinking he's funny being parody of a woman on MasterChef.

Artistry? My arse.

Shrieking and flapping round the fucking place and pretending to flirt with the presenters. He looked dead behind the eyes and looked to me as if even HE didn't find himself funny. Most of the around him looked pretty over it all as well.

None of the other celebs come on in character. It was just cringy.

Lets hope that's the last one they bring on there now. We've moved on.