Would you move to Cape Town?

[ZarZarGabor]

Sorry posting here for traffic.

A good job opportunity has come up to move to Cape Town with work, likely for 3 years or so. We have one pre-school age child and are aware childcare options there are more affordable.

We have spent some time there before and so are alive to some of the issues the country faces including crime, load shedding and bureaucracy. However we still absolutely love the place and want an adventure.

Would be grateful to hear the views of people who have direct experience living there, especially with a young child.

I know lots of people will have a “friend of a friend” who has had bad experiences in South Africa, but I’d really like to hear from people who actually live or have lived there about day to day life for an expat and the sorts of considerations we might have forgotten to factor into (we have already considered visas, healthcare, security, costly mobile phone data etc).

thanks for any advice.

Not the case. Black South Africans are more likely to be victims of crime, not whites.

@Norney you can’t draw any conclusions about white (and other) South Africans leaving post-apartheid South Africa regarding their views on apartheid policy. My husband is South African. He has very mixed heritage, including Cape Coloured (who have Khoisan, Bengali and Malay ancestry). He loves South Africa, but he will not go back now or take our children because it is dangerous. If someone breaks into your home in the U.K. then they take some of your stuff. If they see you they left it. If someone breaks into your home in South Africa then they kill you. With load shedding the electric security gates that keep people safe stop working and the criminal gangs know this. Prominent ANC supporters are being murdered when they try to eradicated corruption. Please look up Babita Deokaran.

*leg it

That’s what I thought. I went to Cape Town in 2006 and it was lovely, I don’t think I’d go back.

No, this isn't a thing. Violent crime is a massive issue affecting both black and white South Africans. You might say that white South Africans are sometimes targeted as they tend to be more affluent, but then black South Africans are more likely to live in the townships where the gangs operate and are targeted there.
My parents are white farmers and in some ways, I think they're safer than other demographics as they're quite off the beaten track, rather than in more densely populated areas. I am far more concerned about family who live in the cities. This isn't a race thing. It's a crime thing and fundamentally a gang thing that affects everyone in South Africa.
I grew up in Cape Town. I go back for holidays but would never go back at all if I didn't have family there.
Every time I see other South Africans that I grew up with, there's always part of the conversation that goes, "Hey, did you hear about so-and-so," and then that's followed by something truly horrific.
I had a conversation with a British person about this recently and he asked me about numbers. How many people do I know who've been murdered? I had to think about it. The answer was four in four separate incidents.
But I had to think about it because once you add in attempted murder? Then I genuinely don't know.
There was the school friend who had her throat cut but survived, the three different people I know in three separate incidents who were shot in the back and survived after being hijacked and running away from the car, the person who was pushed out of a moving train but survived, and so on and so on.
I have no clue how many people I know who have been held up at knife point, other than I was one of them. It's part of the background.
I can't imagine anyone in the UK knowing three separate incidents where someone was shot in the back in such specific circumstances in the UK.
I love Cape Town. It is the most beautiful place in the world and the people are lovely. I miss it terribly. I wish I could go back, but it has serious problems. I couldn't recommend anyone move there. The beauty and the adventure are not worth the risk.

No way.

Have you seen the crime rates?!

There was a black South African interviewed on the news. She said she had gone from being a third class citizen in a first world country to being a first class citizen in a third world country. The end of apartheid should have made her a first class citizen in a first world country.

Thank you. I agree statistics are important. I’m not dismissing anecdotal stories and I have heard many myself from family and friends in SA.

I was asking for direct experience as I was hoping for additional points to think about other than crime which some posters have helpfully mentioned to consider eg bureaucracy, schooling, weather.

I am surprised at some of the stories people have said here eg tasers needed during the day at Camps Bay and how you need to be home at 6pm. I’ve previously spent a few months living in the area and we frequently stayed out after dark, we just didn’t take long walks at night. Surely the restaurant and bar scene wouldn’t exist if everyone was driving their armoured convey home by 6pm! I do however recognise that there have been many posts from people with direct lived experience there who say they have left because of the danger.

I am sorry to hear of the bad experiences that many posters have mentioned their friends or family have suffered.

Thanks for your input. It has been helpful to hear both sides

@ZarZarGabor Definitely some over hyped stories here. Camps Bay is fine. Like everywhere else, park in secure parking and in lit areas.

The very sad thing is the state of governance. There was so much promise but little is delivered. The same party in power and little incentive it appears to make sensible decisions for all citizens. There’s obviously been some progress for black South Africans but it’s not anything like what anyone expected.

You can doubt me all you like, these are true stories unfortunately. I haven't heard them through a friend of a friend. I wouldn't waste my time typing out a work of fiction but I relayed them because they are very frightening.

I have heard them directly from the sources - my EX BF and his family. Don't think they all decided to lie or embellish about their family being murdered. It obviously was very traumatic and the reason they moved to the UK.

The other stories came directly from my colleagues - they all travelled as group on both occasions - I used to work in fashion and Cape Town is often used as a location for winter sun so they can shoot SS stuff off season so there would be several trips per winte.r

It was a large group of them together both at the bar and 2 people who got kidnapped were travelling with the same colleagues (different trip) they just weren't around at the time of the incident but I doubt they both dragged themselves across the tarmac and faked some injuries for the sake of a good story. They told me about these two occasions in one conversation we were having lunch once (happened before I worked there)

I highly doubt around 10 of them got together previous to that lunch and decided to do a mass 'lie' to me together.

Doubt all you like, credible sources.

I have lived in Cape Town most of my life, I moved to the UK 7 years ago at 31 years old.

I would never go back or take my child there.
even if you have a job lined up there is a big chance the company won't last due to the power cuts, if you plan on working for yourself, you won't be able to get around the power cuts, I know a couple to left the UK last year to go back and now they are moving back to the UK because they are simply unable to work they are programmers so they need to be online.
for day to day- transport, don't think about public transport because from trains to busses they are all burnt or the cables stolen so they are unreliable.
car is the best but then you need to plan each route carefully, doors must be locked! and if anyone comes to your window at a stop street just DRIVE. because you will be hijacked.

you can't walk at any time of the day Never at night in the streets even to the shops or to the school.

I had 3 guns to my stomach / head and stabbed once by the time I was 22.

I have woken up with a man in my bedroom watching me sleep after he climbed up the drain pipe in the kitchen window and he had unlocked the front door.
I lived on the 3rd floor of a flat.

I seriously recommend you reconsider.

leaving aside the crime and poverty for a moment, what are the different cultural expectations ?

No. Never. Colleague from South Africa has told me awful stories about life over there.

Very late to the thread and came on here to say family members who lived in SA a couple of decades ago basically needed gated communities, drivers and did not not safe them. Some did not have the money that this was an option and all have left. Things have got worse @jujulabs post is totally spot on. Loads of friends and family from SA, none would choose to live there at the moment. It is a beautiful and complex country but no one I know from there would contemplate going back and the majority really struggle on a personal level as identifying as a national from the country.

Over hyped stories?

People are telling you here first hand about direct friends and family having their throats cut, hands chopped off in robberies, being shot while running from a car theft in the back, being thrown off trains, home invasions which are planned within gangs to the point they get rig of the dogs first, and a minority of posters are dismissing it as "hype" and "well London has crime too"? Wtf?

I've never met anyone in my international circle of large expat communities like Irish or Spanish with anything close to the lawless horror stories I've heard directly from the mouths of tourists and business travellers and native South Africans. Never once. It's not even comparable

I’m one of those annoying posters who isn’t from CT or has first hand experience other than a holiday there pre-kids, but my best friend is from there as are 2 of my three neighbours (albeit one set from Joburg not CT). What they all have in common is they moved from SA in the last 5 years when they had kids/got pregnant. I’m in NZ and my best friend is in Oz and they concede they get most of the ‘good bits’ over here that they left behind (stunning scenery, outdoor lifestyle, sunshine), but not the bad. The crime is horrific in CT but it’s the reasons for the crime they don’t miss most- the awful rich/poor divide, blatant racism etc Now neither NZ or Oz is perfect in those respects but the scale of difference is profound.
my best friend goes back to visit her elderly family (in their house with panic room) but refuses to take her young child. I find that telling. I won’t share the story of my neighbours but let’s just say not all their family got out alive.

I have friends who lived in Cape Town and run a travel company. Because of the nature of their business, they definitely downplay the risks, violence, etc. However, a couple of years ago they started an family and moved out of the city to the countryside. I think it’s very telling that even they didn’t want to live in the city with a child.

Another SA friend has just returned from visiting family there. They are out in the sticks so not as affected by crime but the situation with electricity sounds like such a mess. 3 hours without power every morning and every evening.

If you were saying it was Oz, or NZ, or even US etc- as someone who did 2 years in Copenhagen I would say go for it whilst your child is young , especially if your move costs are covered- with SA- no way- our best friends are back after 12 years- she is a SA and quite a gung ho one too. You clearly know the downsides as have mentioned them in your very first post. They left because they no longer felt remotely safe without guns, big dogs and a local militia group- fed up of no power and quite often no water and feeling trapped in- 3 colleagues murdered between them. . They never went anywhere at night ever and got really fed up of constantly taking precautions just to nip out. I'm afraid the good things simply didn't balance out the crap things for them- the pool, the housemaid, the weather- they were still miserable. if you want that lifestyle any chance of similar openings in Oz or Canada or USA etc?

This is a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" question. Depends on context. but things that me or other people I know have found different between South Africa and here include (this is just a top of my head list, not definitive or prescriptive):

The service industry is huge and it can be hard for non South Africans to understand how to interact, pay, tip etc. It can be confusing understanding why someone is packing your shopping, filing your car with petrol, directing you where to park etc etc and when and how to thank/tip. The glaring inequalities and poverty also impact things, creating interactions you would be very unlikely to have in this country.

South Africans have a reputation for bluntness and directness. This will present differently in say a white South African man vs a black South African woman, but it is nonetheless a defining feature and largely true. We are opinionated and direct.

Expectations around polite social distances/social interactions are different. English people can find it quite odd when, for example, at a restaurant, a random person will turn up at the table, pick up a toddler and wander off to a soft play. That person is probably employed by the restaurant, but that's not guaranteed. Similar situations will take places on beaches, in shops and so on. Similarly, a casual conversation can be more animated, more tactile etc than is standard or normal in the UK.

South Africans are generally very hospitable AND in Cape Town can be quite closed off and unfriendly. These two contradictory things can be true at the same time.

Bureaucracy is different and weird.

Broadly, and this is not definitive at all, but, days start and end earlier as a rule, particularly in Cape Town. That applies to working hours, school, social activities etc. Although in summer, sunset is also the defining time differentiator - activities happen pre sunset or after sunset. Also, no one specifically says that, making it very irritating for non Cape Townians trying to pin things down.

Cape Town car parks all completely throw you and take years off your life as no one in Cape Town can drive in car parks. The rules of the road cease to exist there.

I've read this thread with interest and sadness at hearing how awful things are in CT. We have a holiday booked there in October to see the usual tourist sites, and I'm now considering cancelling as it's not safe for families. We have 3 children.

Please don't cancel. Honestly, you and your family will have a wonderful time. we were there a few months ago and it was fantastic. There are a lot of terrible stories on this thread but honestly, for people on holiday it's just not true. we went to multiple beaches, ate out, had lovely days with friends and family, took the kids to attractions and for shopping trips. It was truly fantastic.

Where are you staying? Happy to offer some family friendly (and safe) ideas!

Umm you do know that @ZarZarGabor will be living there, it's not a holiday

Umm, did you see I was responding to a poster who has a holiday planned in October and is thinking of canceling?

@KellyMarieTunstall2 yes tell us where you'll be staying and what you hope to do. If you're eg at the Waterfront and want to take organised trips you'll be absolutely fine - tourists are very well looked after.