Would you move to Cape Town?

[ZarZarGabor]

Sorry posting here for traffic.

A good job opportunity has come up to move to Cape Town with work, likely for 3 years or so. We have one pre-school age child and are aware childcare options there are more affordable.

We have spent some time there before and so are alive to some of the issues the country faces including crime, load shedding and bureaucracy. However we still absolutely love the place and want an adventure.

Would be grateful to hear the views of people who have direct experience living there, especially with a young child.

I know lots of people will have a “friend of a friend” who has had bad experiences in South Africa, but I’d really like to hear from people who actually live or have lived there about day to day life for an expat and the sorts of considerations we might have forgotten to factor into (we have already considered visas, healthcare, security, costly mobile phone data etc).

thanks for any advice.

@isthismylifenow haha, yes. Like travelling to Somerset West or Stellenbosch... EPIC journeys.

We actually stayed at a wine farm near Somerset West for a few days. DH (who isn't even a native Cape Townian) got himself into a complete state about taking all this time out to travel etc.... I think it took us 35 minutes to get there! To be fair, if you're from Joburg, travelling "out of the city" is more epic so maybe he just hasn't absorbed how small Cape Town is vs Joburg!

@JayAlfredPrufrock I actually did the "tea spurted out of my mouth" when I laughed at that! It's such a great demonstration of the difference between the two.

Really? We stayed in Camps Bay a few years ago, albeit only on a holiday, and it did not seem like this AT ALL. People were out and about in the day time and in the evening. Open faces shops and restuarants, houses without LOADS of security measured. It had a very similar vibe to a European city to me. People were definitely out in the evening, eating, having drinks, walking along the seafront. We also spent some time in Tamboerskloof which was a very similar vibe to a San Francisco suburb. Again lots of cafes, and people out and about, including in the evening. I mean I wouldn't be walking in down time Cape Town at 2am, but it definitely wasn't tasers and behind locked gates by sunset or your are dead.
(and before it is suggested, I have lived in dangerous countries, I am not some clueless tourist wondering around oblivious to all the mortal dangers)

Sorry the the people on this thread saying "but London has crime and unsafe parts" are being totally disingenuous comparing safety in London to South Africa.

And I bet he doesn't bat an eyelid about it.

Actually I am driving to the Free State this week, just to go and buy some curry spice 😂

I could arrange for it to be couriered, but it's such a nice drive and I love the way he does the mix just right for me. And then while I am there, I will go into the butcher and stock up. And then have a nice drive back again. There is a friendly resident giraffe nearby too, so will say hello to him too.

And who says we never get out.... 😛

If you didn't have kids and it was a temporary thing, I would say go for it, have an adventure just be mindful of the dangers. With a kid I would say definitely not. I lived there for years and still make trips back to see family. Every time I visit it's worse safety wise and quality of life wise.

It's a beautiful, wonderful country, and I think it's still fine to visit as a tourist, but don't move there.

I have travelled to Cape Town on a work holiday and loved it but would not work there, We were advised that if we were involved in an accident to not stop and go to the police. I have to be vague but I now work in immigration and all of the white South African applicants have a very similar story of mass unchecked violence, gang rapes and ineffective policing. Having to live in a gated community due to rampant mass rapes is not an experience I would like to happen. ps as a European you will be regarded as a rich target, particularly a European employee would be a ransom target. Absolutely no way would i live there. Very very very sad part of a traumatised society.

Having to live in a gated community due to rampant mass rapes

What are you even talking about? I don't think downplaying the violence in SA is a good idea but this is a completely ridiculous statement.

I've been there on holiday and it is stunningly beautiful, one of the best places I have ever been, but I would not consider living there. There is definitely an edgy atmosphere - I never felt completely at ease. While we were there my idiot dh pulled over to take a photo on the road (for those who have been - those rocks that look like a rhino) and left the door open and the keys in the ignition with me and the dc still in the car 😳!

I know quite a few South Africans who live here - none of them have ever mentioned going back.

When I met late South African dh 24 years ago it used to be that Joburg was considered dangerous but Cape Town was considered ok. I went a few times but not been for about 8 years now. Dh been dead 5 years. I didn't realise that (according to the wiki link someone posted) CT is now more dangerous than Joburg? Would people advise my dds (16 and 19) to not visit and stay with dhs family there for a holiday? They're not in a gated community

For all the South Africans that people know who have moved away, there are hundreds that are living there and happy to stay. Just like the expat community in say Spain, you’d find lots of Brits saying they couldn’t possibly live in the UK again, awful weather, food etc. by simply going on what those have moved away are saying then of course you will have a somewhat skewed view. I am certainly not saying not to think carefully about your decision but I think if you only listen to those that have left then it isn’t balanced.

As a percentage sure it's biased because the mass amount of people who are leaving SA are leaving because of hideous reasons.
People who have left SA aren't doing it because they didn't like the climate and yes there's a lot of us. The clue might be in the sheer amount of people who have left, means for the majority of people the situation isn't great.

That's not to say for some it's just dandy.

I love South Africa is it's one of my favourite places and I visit regularly. Ops asked for lived experiences and these are lived experience's. I haven't met many sa that aren't upfront about their experiences good or bad.

Just because I now live in the uk doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to blow smoke up peoples arses and not say from my perspective the pros and cons are. All opinions by the nature of the things are biased based on each persons lives experiences.

All the opinions on here are just that opinions not facts. The sheer number amount of people leaving because of similar experiences is data and fact.

This isn't a scaremongering thread or said to scare op, it's just literally peoples opinion.

@ZarZarGabor if you like you can contact me privately. Then I can add you to a local parenting Facebook group. It's largely Cape Town based, which would be helpful for you.

Then you will be able to get a truer reflection of what day to day life is like from the view of people who live here. You could even post this very same post on there, then see what responses you get.

@BerriesandLeaves statistically Cape Town has always had a higher murder rate than Johannesburg due to gang violence on the Cape Flats, it was like that decades ago even.

Thanks. Didn't know that. Is it less safe now than it was 10 years ago? Or about the same?

When I asked my SA friend why she moved here she said "because we have daughters."

She goes to visit her sister but that's the only reason she goes back. Another family we know never goes back ,they moved the whole family here to be safer.

Cape Town violence has always been high - it's just that the vast bulk of it was traditionally not impacting white people so as a tourist or even a white person who lived there, it felt safer than Joburg. The taxi (sort of private busses, used almost exclusively by black people) violence has, at times, been truly horrific. My parents convinced their cleaner to use alternative, more expensive, transport at one point (they paid, obviously) because they were so worried about her.

@BerriesandLeaves I wouldn't have a problem with your teenagers visiting your late DH's family, but would impress upon them that they need to listen to his family and take their advice on board. So, for example, even now, 20 years after I left SA, I find it almost impossible to leave my handbag at say a table in Costa while I order a second drink - even if I can see it from where I'm standing. And I'd certainly never leave it behind while going to the bathroom. They all think I'm totally paranoid.

So when your in laws tell your daughters that they must put their phones away, or not leave their bags lying around, or ensure everything is out of the car at night, they should listen - NOTHING more irritating to a local than a foreigner who assures them things are "fine" when they don't know what they're talking about.

I think a little less safe now as the massive impact of the corruption is more pronounced, and covid obviously had a big impact as well plus the COL thing is global. Looking at the overall SA stats the murder rate has been climbing again since around 2010 and that rate has increased a bit more sharply recently.

Things like homeless encampments are apparently more visible in some areas now (I don't live there now but return to visit family and obviously speak to them regularly).

It's kind of tricky to quantify, I don't want to underplay the fact that it's a more dangerous place than the UK/Western Europe but at the same time I don't recognise some of the descriptions here of people afraid to leave the house without tasers. So I suppose it's down to individual risk tolerance.

Thanks. I don't think they'd do that..(Say its fine when advised otherwise.) Late dhs family were always surprised people leave their cars parked on the road in UK. Dhs bro was a bit worried about leaving his hire car across our drive when he last came over.

Hi OP

Never been so can't speak from personal experience but have heard some really upsetting stuff in terms of safety.

Ex-Boyfriend was from SA and he and his immediate family moved to the UK because his Aunt, Uncles, Cousins etc were all slaughtered on their property

In previous job I had Cape Town was somewhere colleagues used to travel to frequently for work - two of them were kidnapped and both had to jump from a moving car on the motorway. Both miraculously survived but have seen their injuries first hand.

Another time as a group they were in a cafe in the daytime and someone kindly discreetly told them to leave through the back right as another group were discussing in Afrikaans how they were going to rob and kill them.

Sorry some grim stories but there is obviously a lot of truth in the safety aspect as seems like there are many similar tales.

I see that you're not keen on "anecdotal" evidence of crime in S. Africa, OP, so perhaps statistics are more useful:

You can read this, for example: https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/665791/violent-crime-in-south-africa-is-getting-worse-here-are-all-the-latest-stats/

The per 100,000 murder rate in SA in 2021/22 was 42 (https://issafrica.org/iss-today/soaring-murder-rates-underline-the-lack-of-sound-direction-for-policing#:~:text=Murder%20has%20increased%20by%2062,was%2043%20(Chart%201).

For comparison, the per 100,000 murder rate in the UK over the same period was 1.1.

Don't dismiss the "anecdotal" crime stories - they are based on the reality that SA is an exceptionally violent society.

I am sort of hesitant to even right this for fear of tempting fate, but while I believe the stories people are telling, I also know that I just don't have the same number or variety of similar stories, even though I still have loads of family and friends there.

So lots and lots of stories about cars being broken into, houses too sometimes. But I don't know anyone who has been kidnapped and had to jump out of their car, or had to leave a restaurant for fear of being killed by a random group of people sitting next to them in a cafe (okay, actually, I do doubt this story, sorry). There have been families murdered wholesale on farms - truly awful stories - but it's not something I'm seeing as a feature of suburban Cape Town.

These stories often take on a life of their own. That's not to say they don't happen and aren't terrible, but the OP is specifically asking about moving to a wealthy, relatively safe part of Cape Town for a few years, not jacking in her job to become a farmer in the Eastern Cape.

It’s a beautiful place without a doubt. But there is a reason so many SA folk are leaving. It’s just not a safe place, particularly for Caucasians.

@Triffid1 you've said everything I was thinking. I've also got family as well as friends living both in Cape Town and elsewhere and in terms of people I know well, no-one has been a victim of serious violent crime at that level.

I do, unfortunately and sadly, know of several farm murder victims in the wider community where one of my siblings live, but (and you'll get this is you're from SA), the small towns that serve as rural hubs feel safe, it really is the isolation on the farms themselves (plus some underling complexities) that make that such a dangerous situation. The other murder victims I know have been businessmen in neighbouring countries who are unfortunately always armed robbery targets.
As a side note, not all the farm murder victims in the area I'm from have been white - one domestic worker was sadly killed alongside the farmer in one case, and in two others it was married couples who were killed, one a farm manager and one an owner. But I do also believe that people like Malema deliberately stir things for votes/clout.

I'd go so far as to say that home invasion-style murders are still relatively rare in the more affluent Cape suburbs, something like that would be massive news. And I also doubt the overheard a conversation/warning story, that's just a tweak on a classic urban legend.

It’s just not a safe place, particularly for Caucasians.

I'll reiterate that, excluding farm murders from the stats, whites are the safest demographic statistically in SA.