To think it's embarrassing how English has one of the easiest grammar systems, and yet so many people don't know the basic rules...

[Skyeboat]

I'm a linguist, and the languages I studied have very complex grammar rules compared to English. So much so that native speakers have to memorise verb tables, moods, cases etc. at primary school level, and even those who didn't study to a high level know the basic rules.
English is one of the simplest languages, and yet the amount of native English speakers I see making really obvious mistakes is just embarrassing.
Is the problem that we just don't teach grammar and syntax in school?
For example, I saw a FB post today selling "Teddy's" (as opposed to teddies). That's actually the most common mistake I see - people, even businesses, not knowing how to use apostrophes and form plurals. I'd understand if it was a complicated rule that required memorisation with a lot of exceptions, but it's soo basic. It takes about 10 minutes to learn then you're all set.
I went to a pretty average state school, and I remember they did teach us these things, but we weren't rigorously tested on them or required to repeat them regularly. So I do believe the problem is with a lack of focus on basic English from a young age.
Am I being unreasonable or is this really embarrassing that we have such a poor grasp of our own mother tongue?

I think it's that we see way more written English than we used to.
The fact is that at least 20% of Australian adults have only basic functional literacy when they leave school (higher in Tasmania - true!). Once upon a time you'd never see anything written by this 20%, maybe the occasional receipt or letter or shop sign. Now, way more people communicate in writing (text, social media, email, posts), and that's all the apparent errors you see on the internet.
To be clear, I think it's great. The purpose of language is to communicate, and if OP knows that "teddy's for sale" means the seller is selling teddy bears, what is really the harm!

It also doesn't pass the sniff test that the only people who are careless with grammar are English speakers! - that native speakers of French, Mandarin, Thai, Portuguese, Russian, Arabic, Tagalog, Afrikaans, Romanian, Swedish, and every other language on earth, are careful, precise, correct, highly skilled custodians of their tongue and NEVER vary the rules based on literacy or dialect or just... convenience or (gasp) playfulness. Human nature being universal, and humans being good at shortcuts, I'm 100% certain we all do it.
It certainly hasn't held English speakers back from success in terms of human progress.

@cafesandbookshops
I’m not sure if anyone has answered you but
’I do play ‘ is not a tense.

It the use of ‘emphatic’ do to emphasise the verb that follows.
The auxiliary Do isn’t really carrying any meaning here .

@Trixiefirecracker its perfectly correct English!

Autocorrect can sometimes mess up grammar in regards adding or removing apostrophes.

I do think there should have been more grammar rules taught when I was at school. It’s good to read that this might be different now.

My grammar is far from perfect but I do internally roll my eyes when I read the wrong your/you're/there/their/they're etc etc. Except if I know the writer is dyslexic as then it obviously can't be helped.

Generally I'm not bothered, but it does frustrate me when I see these basic mistakes on CVs. When I'm recruiting for a reception position where the successful candidate will be sending emails to customers, it can affect my decision.

Saying that, I speak French as a second language and native French speakers can make horrific basic grammar and spelling mistakes too. Someone tried to correct something I wrote from "j'ai parlé" to "j'ai parler" and I KNEW I was right even though I'd only been studying 6 months!

Following on from that, there were other aspects of English grammar that I only learnt after I started studying French. When to use "who" or "whom" springs to mind, couldn't get my head around it before.

I don't understand the subjunctive in either language!

In summary- I don't expect perfection from anyone but I understand your frustration with regards to the basics. Now wait there while I scrutinise my post for mistakes 🤣

I agree with you that’s how people think. But in fact, grammar and punctuation is a key part of precise communication. Without it communication, expression, falters. The idea that meaning can be clearly conveyed with sloppy language simply isn’t true.

In the last two years I have paid for two professional letters to be written, one by a lawyer and one by a planning consultant, that were so badly written that I had to re-write them. I requested and received 50% of my money back.

The lawyer was from a small firm specialising in a particular area of law, not magic circle, but someone I would have expected, with a degree and legal training, be able to write reasonable English.

They were both young, and, in conversation came across reasonably intelligent and well-versed in their subject. So the divergence between their apparent grasp of their subject in conversation - and the standard of writing was genuinely shocking.

OP
I don’t agree that English is an easy language .
It appears easy as it only has two tenses (ie where you change the ending of the verb) and no gender etc
The spelling was (partially) regulated later than other languages and there are lots of homophones ( their /there ) which confuse native speakers more than learners I’ve noticed .Maybe learners are more careful

I agree with the person who said lack of understanding of grammatical terms makes learning foreign languages much harder for young people here.
They have to learn grammatical concepts at the same time as learning the new language

From the little I’ve seen of primary school grammar teaching it has gone too far the other way and is terribly dry

There's far more important things schools need to teach instead of where a little mark goes. School is only there to set you up for being a good employee. How to follow rules. Carry out tasks to a basic standard quickly as possible! We should be getting taught tax forums. How to apply for things... Jobs, courses all through to benefits. How to cook properly how to do basic life skills but that isn't there. Putting a comma or full stop in the right place just isn't important.

@HereBeFuckery wow, that's astonishing! I had no idea there were restrictions like that on marking. Thay must be very frustrating.

Ultimately, whether English is relatively complicated or not (and all languages have challenging aspects for the non-native) is kind of beside the point. Many adults in the UK grew up believing that correct grammar and punctuation is irrelevant, learning it is boring and it's not a necessary part of the curriculum. That's a shame and it is holding us back in many ways. It's also an attitude that filters down to their children.

Just a couple of years ago Michael Rosen (Michael Rosen! Former Children's Laureate!) wrote an article in The Guardian protesting the horrors of grammar in the primary curriculum. This kind of attitude, held by many well educated, middle class people, is in my view the worst kind of snobbery, and contributes to holding back people from less advantaged backgrounds.

In fact today The Guardian reports that the FCDO spent £13 million on school fees for the children of diplomats last year. I would bet a lot of money that those schools set high standards for grammar and punctuation. Those children are being set up for life starting with the most basic skills of reading and writing. And they are the ones who are going to get senior jobs in the Civil Service, legal professions, journalism etc. No one is going to chuck their CV away because they made basic errors in written communication. So why wouldn't we want ALL children and adults to be given the basics so that they can at least get their foot in the door? It's a small thing, but important, and protesting that it's irrelevant is so unhelpful.

English is not my first language and far from perfect, but sometimes I see written mistakes that are difficult to comprehend. I had to attend a support phonics session for parents recently, to support our daughter with passing a phonics test. During that session, they made a presentation with slides and in one of the slides, about the importance of reading every day, they wrote that it didn't have to necessarily be from 'there' reading books. I was shocked to be honest.

You'll always get people who don't think it matters. When looking through job applications we always look for good grammar, spelling and basics, like use of apostrophes.

It'll be the ones that show a good grasp of these that get through. It depends on the jobs people want and what their aspirations are I guess. Those who don't think it's relevant won't bother, and many jobs don't require this sort of knowledge.

English has at least 12 tenses, depending on how you define the concept.

Don't be suspicious of people like me! I think you misunderstand us. In practical terms, every primary school teacher is going to give appropriate feedback. This will involve lots of praise for whatever a child does well, but it will, of course, include corrections (eg of spellings, punctuation). We're all trying to help children become confident, competent communicators. You don't achieve that by presenting children with an extensive and depressing list of rules about how they should use language. Far better to encourage a love of reading and writing, and pride in their own ability to communicate. The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled.

When I was at school we weren't really taught grammar. I was at primary school in the 80's, I think it most have been a trend then not to teach it for some reason, and I do struggle with grammar. Not the obvious stuff the OP has posted, but I'm a bit lost when learning a foreign language when it comes to tenses, adjectives, verbs etc. It's good that it's now taught, but tbh when I think of the stuff my kids now need to learn, it seems to have gone to the other extreme and it's way too much.

Aye No! Rite! I've got me PhD in forensic linguistics (an Masters in cognitive linguistics)! I should of just worked in me local garden centre cos most of, er yeah, judges an baristas talk proper Yorkshire darn pub afta work any'how!

Eh well, song as we'll gerreachother, what's is matter where yer shove yer comma.

English is very tricky, especially when there are dialects converted into text. (I think my posh voice broke, soz guys.)

It’s surprise how many people think spelling and grammar doesn’t matter. You obviously don’t realise you’re being silently judged. My old boss always refused to hire anyone whose application demonstrated a poor grasp of language skills. Firstly because he said it created a bad impression with clients and looked unprofessional. Secondly because the job required attention to detail, and he felt if they couldn’t even get their grammar right then what chance did they have of succeeding with all of the other detail-oriented tasks they would need to undertake.

Not particularly. All languages are complex to some degree. Being difficult to learn as a foreign language because it’s not terribly regular and has a large irregular vocabulary - though thought tough through thorough - doesn’t mean it’s difficult for native speakers language to get the basics right.

I'm not a UK/english native, and i was surprised how rubbish native speakers were with their spelling/grammar. In fact in the early 2000s i was the go-to person for spell-check in my workplace 😵‍💫 And I'm a completely average person in regards to my intellect and educational performance.. So not a linguistic genius at all.
The basic mistake of 'would of' instead of 'would have' doesn't make sense to me.. I think the schools should do better (and i am a parent)..

@Yellowlegobrick , IMO trainee primary teachers should be given an English ‘basics’ test at the start of their course - I mean things like where to put an apostrophe, or not - the difference between their/they’re/there, it’s/its, your/you’re, who’s/whose, etc. A piece with lots of mistakes to write out correctly would do it.
And if they can’t manage that, remedial English.
And if they still can’t grasp such basics, perhaps they shouldn’t be teaching in the first place.

These basic things really are not difficult if clearly and properly taught. I used to teach them to speakers of Arabic, one or two of whom weren’t even literate in their own language.

I agree with the pp who said a lot of grammar is absorbed by reading - as long as they’re literate texts. You begin to know what looks right and what doesn’t. And don’t mean ‘literary’ texts - any well written book, including so many written for children, will do.

It's inaccurate and unhelpful to claim that there has been a great unprecedented decline in standards. A whole section of adults with functional levels of written communication but relatively little training in formal grammar are writing and 'publishing' publicly in unprecedented volume, and often in very informal contexts where they simply transcribe their spoken language rather than shifting register. This is very exciting for descriptive linguists as this provides a wealth of dialect which is otherwise difficult to capture!

This is so much fun.

I think if you are pointing out weaknesses in our ability to form a robust educational approach to language, most people would agree that our system can be improved and as people are pointing out to you, there are myriad reasons for the discrepancy including the acceptance of regionalism and dialect.

I think if you're saying that if you use grammar wrong and spell things wrong you should be ashamed of yourself, then you need to consider your values and probably acquaint yourself with the contending priorities in other people's lives that place such things very low down the list.

My native language is Latin based and I found English grammar a lot easier than any other languages I've tried to learn.

1. Grammar is taught all the way through primary school
2. English is well known for being the most difficult language to learn with rules that make no logical sense. You are the only person I have ever heard from that says it's easier
3. Due to generations of English entitlement and exceptionalism, we are appalling at learning other languages , so are not really in a position to comment as a nation.

I'm grateful we don't have an education system that grills on grammar quite as much as some countries (although we are getting closer) but leaves more room for more creative education (again that is changing, sadly).

Anyway as a linguist I'm sure you know that people make mistakes in other languages too? I've lived in 3 other countries and have laughed at grammar or spelling mistakes in documents and signs as much as I have in England.

‘We was’ is usually a regional variation not an error. As a linguist, you must know that language is far more than an adherence to strict rules. Grammar variations can signify what region, class and culture are you from. There is nothing wrong with people using grammar differently, just like there is nothing wrong with people pronouncing words differently. There are a lot of language snobs out there.
Genuine mistakes like ‘there’ and ‘their’ are usually just a lack of proofreading because most people aren’t as anal as you.