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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think it's embarrassing how English has one of the easiest grammar systems, and yet so many people don't know the basic rules...

815 replies

Skyeboat · 09/08/2023 15:44

I'm a linguist, and the languages I studied have very complex grammar rules compared to English. So much so that native speakers have to memorise verb tables, moods, cases etc. at primary school level, and even those who didn't study to a high level know the basic rules.
English is one of the simplest languages, and yet the amount of native English speakers I see making really obvious mistakes is just embarrassing.
Is the problem that we just don't teach grammar and syntax in school?
For example, I saw a FB post today selling "Teddy's" (as opposed to teddies). That's actually the most common mistake I see - people, even businesses, not knowing how to use apostrophes and form plurals. I'd understand if it was a complicated rule that required memorisation with a lot of exceptions, but it's soo basic. It takes about 10 minutes to learn then you're all set.
I went to a pretty average state school, and I remember they did teach us these things, but we weren't rigorously tested on them or required to repeat them regularly. So I do believe the problem is with a lack of focus on basic English from a young age.
Am I being unreasonable or is this really embarrassing that we have such a poor grasp of our own mother tongue?

OP posts:
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6
Commonhousewitch · 10/08/2023 07:58

There has been a huge period in education in the UK (or at least in England) where grammar wasn't taught as such; the focus was on creative writing, enjoying reading etc rather than structure. As a linguist you would probably have had more formal learning in foreign languages/language structure than English.
That said i do remember at various stages in education, teachers explaining the apostrophe - particularly in the word it's/its . I think people get so conscious about the use that they over-compensate. I would also say as a linguist you are possibly hyper sensitive to mistakes.

Lilyflowerinthepond · 10/08/2023 07:58

OP - my native language is of Latin origin and I did find learning English a lot easier than learning another Latin language.

Our grammar is extremely complex compared to English but our pretty average countryside school was very very good at teaching it. And we started school at age 6/7.

I really don't get the schooling system here now that I have a 5 year old and I am concerned to be honest.

Piranhaha · 10/08/2023 07:59

By definition, half of people are of below average intelligence. So why do you expect them to be able to understand grammar?

Gorillas have been known to have an iq of about 80. The average iq in the UK is 100. That means if your iq is 120 there’s as much difference between you and an average person as there is between an average person and a gorilla. God knows how it feels for the people wandering around with iqs over 140 - everyone must seem like gibbering idiots!

Quirrelsotherface · 10/08/2023 07:59

I agree with you entirely but mumsnet, for some reason, hates this subject and lots find it very triggering! Odd!

I pride myself on my spelling and grammar and honestly, put it down to the fact I read ALL the time as a kid.

Dontworkmondays · 10/08/2023 08:00

Does it matter?

marblesthecat · 10/08/2023 08:01

JanieEyre · 10/08/2023 07:20

People on MN are always incredibly defensive, tipping over frequently into being positively aggressive, about grammar. People can and do regularly get away with being unpleasant about someone's driving, manners, housekeeping and cleaning standards, and how they bring up their children; but if they dare to venture politely into a suggestion that maybe "could of" is not the way to write, they will instantly get piled on. Beating someone up for preferring good grammar has become a form of virtue-signallling round here.

Yet we really ought to be concerned about these things, because we are in an age when our children are being taught that grammar matters, and when they will get penalised for using bad grammar. Given that most people on MN are or want to be parents, we should work on the basis that, on the whole, it really is better to set them a reasonably good example, particularly given that frequently it's actually easier to write things correctly.

Honestly the aggression displayed on this thread just because OP suggested that people are lazy with their grammar is unbelievable.

oakleaffy · 10/08/2023 08:02

willWillSmithsmith · 10/08/2023 07:39

Would a linguist say ‘super basic’? I would have thought a linguist would be quite pedantic about grammar and phrasing. My biggest bugbear is writing of instead of have. Speaking it I get because of sounds very similar to ‘ve but it shouldn’t be written.

''Could of'' absolutely sets my teeth on edge.
Also, and I'm not sure why, when people refer to themselves as ''Myself''.

''My wife and myself'' ..it sounds very jarring.

marblesthecat · 10/08/2023 08:04

Quirrelsotherface · 10/08/2023 07:59

I agree with you entirely but mumsnet, for some reason, hates this subject and lots find it very triggering! Odd!

I pride myself on my spelling and grammar and honestly, put it down to the fact I read ALL the time as a kid.

Same! I really don't get why people on here get so angry when this subject is brought up. I've always read a lot and tried to speak/write correctly and if someone corrects me that's fine. I often pronounce things wrong because I've only ever read the word and never heard it spoken aloud and I'm happy to be corrected and learn the right way to say it. Learning two romance languages has been a very humbling experience and even though I know I will probably never be as eloquent as native speakers I'll continue to try my best and to be corrected when necessary.

PatrickGammon · 10/08/2023 08:04

Haven't rtft and I'm prepared to be flamed for this but people who write, "I brought a house" as opposed to bought. How the fuck can you get that wrong? They mean entirely different things.

Also "I done x" instead of "I did" or "I've done". Stay in the correct tense please.

pollyglot · 10/08/2023 08:05

When you say you're a linguist, OP, do you mean that you have studied the science of linguistics, or are you a bit of a polyglot? Can you discuss with ease inflected morphemes over a glass of prosecco, for example?

RampantIvy · 10/08/2023 08:08

Dontworkmondays · 10/08/2023 08:00

Does it matter?

Why shouldn't it?

Happiestinmygarden · 10/08/2023 08:09

Current primary school children learn the hell out of grammar for Y6 SATS, far more than I ever did at school in the 80s, or even in my degree as a speech and language therapist! It will be interesting to see if this generation speak and write perfectly grammatical sentences when they grow up? My guess is not, my daughter actually got full marks on her SPAG test but I don’t see much evidence of this in her written or spoken language! Personally I don’t think analysing grammar has much bearing on use of grammar, you can use a fronted adverbial without even knowing what one looks like and most of the language grammar we use is learned from the people we communicate and interact with every day, not from a text book.

OMG12 · 10/08/2023 08:10

I thought most non-native English speakers thought English was very complex. Maybe, you’re not great at learning languages.

oakleaffy · 10/08/2023 08:12

PatrickGammon · 10/08/2023 08:04

Haven't rtft and I'm prepared to be flamed for this but people who write, "I brought a house" as opposed to bought. How the fuck can you get that wrong? They mean entirely different things.

Also "I done x" instead of "I did" or "I've done". Stay in the correct tense please.

Oh yes, and also ''Led'' for ''Lying'' ''I was led on my bed''
I think this might be regional, we lived in Bristol for a while from London.

However, one Bristol colloquialism is lovely. ''Smoovin'' as opposed to ''stroking'' a cat or dog.

''Smoothing'' is a lovely term. But this isn't grammar, more regional.

Mirabai · 10/08/2023 08:12

I agree with you OP. And the attitudes of the thread show indicate how it has come about. The knee-jerk defensiveness and general unwillingness to make an effort, the view of good grammar as snobbish and posh. The idea that it’s not important - when actually it is.

Interestingly Hilary Mantel (herself from a northern working class background) made the observation that when she was young - shops and businesses never got their grammar and punctuation wrong.

Everywhere you go people confuse possessive and plural - so easy to learn. Everywhere on this forum people write ‘my partner and myself’, ‘to my partner and I’ when it should be ‘me’, ‘I was sat’ - my favourite is ‘sat here in tears’.

It doesn’t have to be Henry James, just get the basics right.

maratara · 10/08/2023 08:12

Seeline · 09/08/2023 15:55

I went to primary school in the 1970s. Beyond capital letters and full stops we were taught no grammar at all. I learnt because I was an avid reader so know whether things sound or look 'right'. I have no idea of the theory behind it, or what different parts of speech are called etc. Learning French at my grammar school was a complete mystery as I knew nothing of tenses etc.
I was amazed at the grammar my DD had to learn for her Y6 SATS. I was no help at all. I'm not sure her teacher was much help either - unless teaching a specific English topic, her grammar was awful!

You are me! @Seeline We weren't taught grammar at all; but if you were a huge reader like myself and @Seeline then you could blitz through school, even having zero idea about grammar besides : a verb is a doing word.

oakleaffy · 10/08/2023 08:14

Mirabai · 10/08/2023 08:12

I agree with you OP. And the attitudes of the thread show indicate how it has come about. The knee-jerk defensiveness and general unwillingness to make an effort, the view of good grammar as snobbish and posh. The idea that it’s not important - when actually it is.

Interestingly Hilary Mantel (herself from a northern working class background) made the observation that when she was young - shops and businesses never got their grammar and punctuation wrong.

Everywhere you go people confuse possessive and plural - so easy to learn. Everywhere on this forum people write ‘my partner and myself’, ‘to my partner and I’ when it should be ‘me’, ‘I was sat’ - my favourite is ‘sat here in tears’.

It doesn’t have to be Henry James, just get the basics right.

''Sat here in tears'' 🤣

LylaLee · 10/08/2023 08:15

@oakleaffy

Smooving is lovely!

OMG12 · 10/08/2023 08:15

Oh, and I can remember using my A Level English language text book during lockdown to help with the teaching of my then year 3-4 DS with his work. I, therefore, suspect that the teaching of grammar is improving.

Boomchuck · 10/08/2023 08:16

Takoneko · 09/08/2023 16:04

When you say that you’re a linguist what do you mean by that? This seems like an odd thing for a linguist to say.

Linguistic complexity is really difficult to measure and all languages are equally complex for native speakers. It’s no harder for Finnish children to learn Finnish than for Chinese children to learn Mandarin or English children to learn English. Some languages have more tenses, some have more inflection, some are more agglutinative than others, some have larger vocabularies, some have more sounds than others, some are tonal or use pitch accent. Foreign languages feel more complex because it’s easier to spot complexities in other languages than in your own.

Show quote history

This. Are you sure you are an actual linguist OP? You sound like someone who has just studied a few new languages. 🤔

I was on a language course a few months ago with a woman who snorted that the language was unnecessarily complex compared to English. We were learning about that language’s equivalent of direct and indirect objects, and she didn’t realise that we had an equivalent in English complete with our own set of rules for how they operate.

Masterofhappydays · 10/08/2023 08:18

English isn’t my first language…or second….or third. I learnt to speak English when I was 10 and my tutor at the time said English is the most difficult language to learn. I speak 8 languages fluently now and some other languages at conversational level. She was correct.

I ended up studying English at bachelor and linguistics at masters level. My English teacher was correct. English is the most difficult language to learn.

JanieEyre · 10/08/2023 08:19

By definition, half of people are of below average intelligence. So why do you expect them to be able to understand grammar?

Not actually true. But maybe we shouldn't venture into mathematical arguments as well ...

ThanksItHasPockets · 10/08/2023 08:19

I have read all of OP’s posts but not every response so apologies if someone has already posted a copy of the primary national curriculum, specifically for English: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/425601/PRIMARY_national_curriculum.pdf

It would be nice if those who wish to criticise schools and the curricula we teach at least familiarised themselves with the content first. It is correct to say that explicit grammar teaching was largely absent from the curriculum from the 90s and into the mid 2010s. A big part of my role at the moment is helping teachers who were in school at this time to address gaps in their knowledge. There are a lot of sensitivities around this as people often feel self-conscious about their lack of knowledge and have internalised the embarrassment that OP thinks we should all feel.

The national curriculum in England - Framework document

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/425601/PRIMARY_national_curriculum.pdf

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 10/08/2023 08:22

If you were an actual linguist, that's studied applied linguistics rather than just modern foreign languages, you would be descriptive not prescriptive with analyzing language used. Yes our standard English says 'he was' but it's very common in dialects including working class London and Yorkshire to say 'he were..' standard English only reflects which class and geography area in our country was most in power when the printing presses were made and they had to pick one dialect to use. People have every right to use their own dialect especially in non formal settings like this.

With the spelling and apostrophes - some people really don't know (as pp has said, perhaps not a priority growing up some people have hard lives) but also it's often caused by voice to text software or autocorrect.