“We paid in all our lives”: AIBU to think, No you didn’t?

[Perlman]

My grandparents are traditional red wall labour voters. Born during WWII to poor families, they live where they grew up. My grandad worked in a factory and my nan worked as a secretary. Like many of their generation, they lived in and bought their council house. Very caring people until it comes to politics. They are hugely racist and advocate for sinking any refugee boats. This is despite the fact that some of their grandparents were refugees from Russia!

They want the triple lock, free bus passes, heating allowance, increased benefits for older people, et cetera. They think anyone who isn’t old who takes benefits is a scrounger and lazy. They say young people can’t afford to buy a house because they are lazy. They have inherited several, but put down their relatively comfortable position in retirement as to their ‘hard work’.

They justify their opinions and entitlement by saying “we paid in all ours lives, it’s our money”. AIBU to think that, well no, not really. You may have paid in money through taxation but clearly they are net beneficiaries of the state. They both had low paid jobs, bought and sold on their council house for a tidy profit, have thankfully lived a long life but with a myriad of expensive to treat health problems. So no, they haven’t paid for what they’re taking!

You don't even have a basic understanding of the problem, and to boot, you will twist yourself into a veritable pretzel generating outlandish ideas to solve problems primarily because you are allergic to the reality that "pensioners need to pay in more".

I leave it to others to compare our solutions to the issues you outlined to judge which are outlandish. There are far better ways of solving problems than solutions based on spite, envy and malice.

@TheThinkingGoblin absolutely no political party is going to be taking anything away from pensioners to give to other groups when pensioners are the only ones who are guaranteed to actually vote. And if they did add for instance adding NI into regular taxation so that pensioners pay the same tax rate on their earning as everyone else (or heaven forbid pay tax on their wealth!) Into their manifesto then they wouldn't get voted into power anyway.
What we need in this country is compulsory voting. But again the grey vote wouldn't vote for that so it'll never happen. Sorry!

Again, you don't seem to have much of a clue.

The Drs are striking over PAY. Do you not understand this?

A few asylum seekers being sent to work in the NHS will not change the realities on the ground for JDs or GPs.

£100k student debt
£15/h rates
£2k/year professional fees

Etc.

People of your generation have essentially sucked the NHS dry, and the professionals there are totally fed up. They have endured 15 years of this and have reached the end of the road.

10+ years of study and work with high levels of stress are so poorly compensated that they cannot even afford to buy a home or start a family. This compares to places like Ireland were they make 3x more or Australia (5x more). And those countries are actively recruiting them.

So now you will only get emergency care only.

If you want more than that, then you will have to pay up.

Its that simple really. This is the world your generation has created so enjoy the fruits of tour labours.

Agreed that it will never happen if Starmer starts floating it to the country now. Best thing to do is wait and let reality sort it out.

Economic reality has the nice habit of punching through even the toughest mental reality distortion fields which is what will happen over the next 24 months.

When pensioners get another 6-7% triple lock increase next year in April 2024 (set using September 2023 inflation), how do you think people will see this when they are now being thrust into working poverty?

Its not just the lower income folks either. It will be young working mothers, and many children.
The contrast between the poorer working folks and children with the pensioners will keep getting worse.

And when these folks ask for help what can Starmer say....that there is no money?

Will be a bit rich when he just handed out another large income boost to the pensioners.

If people think the animosity towards the pensioners is bad now, it will get much worse over the next 24 months as the rate rises start hitting working families due to fixed term mortgages expiring.

So we would then have mortgage free pensioners receiving 6-7% more in state benefits while working folks with mortgages and children are getting much poorer.

The clamour do then do something about the triple lock will be immense (because its obviously unfair).

Do fuck off with the generational blame. What on earth is the point of doing it?

The behavior of the pensioner cohort combined with FPTP and the UKs tax structure are economically crippling the country.

Is that simple enough for you?

What’s crippling the country is the bunch of incompetent, avaricious charlatans who are pretending to run the country while lining their and their cronies’ pockets. The insane amount of our money paying the national debt. Taxation that’s at its highest for 70 years. Liz Truss cost this country £30 billion in 49 days. Looking at a group of the population and blaming them is exactly what they want, while you’re busy doing that they’re getting away with God knows what.

The UKs public sector pension liabilities are about 3 TRILLION £££. Thats more than the entire GDP of the UK but its kept off the balance sheet as it is paid "as it comes due".

State Pension is now £125bn (10% of public spending and 5% of GDP) and increasing due to triple lock and demographics.

Take it from a highly experienced global professional in the actuarial world that has been doing pension valuations for 20+ years:

Its not the £30bn one off cost that cripples you.

Its the long-term pension costs that do.

Every single time.

This invariably happens when one group votes themselves outsized retirement benefits, and the demographic balance becomes skewed, while the economy goes into an economic tailspin.

And thats the UK right now.

Those costs have started to crowd out spending in:

1. Education
2. NHS
3. Capital Infrastructure
4. Local authorities

There is no magic money pot when you cannot borrow more (like right now in the UK).

The existential choice now for the UK is:

Do we keep uprating state pensions via the triple lock and reduce:

Education funding in real terms
NHS funding in real terms
LA funding in real terms
Childcare funding in real terms
Capital Infrastructure in real terms.

Thats what the country has come to. Thats why buildings are falling apart, class sizes are 30+, and Drs are striking due to low pay. These things have been eroded slowly over 15 years in real terms to fund the extra benefits for the pensioners (and win power via FPTP).

The UK is very close right now to reaching the problem Greece had with their own pension system given markets will not allow the UK to borrow more to finance non-productive investments.

The grim reality is that the UK is basically broke and poor, and its not a situation that will be solvable in even a decade.

The transition to a poorer country (in real GDP per capita terms) will be brutal for many, specially at the lower end of the income distribution. This is also why these folks need more help vs the pensioners (who are now the wealthiest cohort in the UK. Even more so than working people).

The UKs public sector pension liabilities are about 3 TRILLION £££. Thats more than the entire GDP of the UK but its kept off the balance sheet as it is paid "as it comes due

Interesting you should say that as it’s the only area for which borrowing has decreased in the current financial year.

Table 1: Public sector net borrowing by sub-sector
Public sector net borrowing by sub-sector May 2023 compared with May 2022, £ billion, UK
Sub-sector Dataset identifier
code May
(£ billion) Change on a year ago
2023 2022 £ billion Percentage
Central Government -NMFJ 20.9 10.1 10.7 105.8
Local Government -NMOE -2.3 0.2 -2.5 -
Sub-total: General
Government -NNBK 18.6 10.3 8.3 80.3
Public Corporations -CPCM 0.0 0.0 0.1 -
Public Sector Pensions -CWNY -0.3 -0.2 -0.1 -24.3
Sub-total: Public Sector ex
BoE and Banks [note 1] -CPNZ 18.3 10.1 8.3 82.2
Bank of England -JW2H 1.7 -0.7 2.4 -
Sub-total: Public Sector ex
[note 2] -J5II 20.0 9.4 10.7 114.0
Public Sector Banks -IL6B -0.8 -0.8 0.0 0.4
Total: Public Sector -ANNX 19.2 8.5 10.7 125.0
Memo: Central government
net cash requirement [note 3] M98R 17.0 11.5 5.5 47.8
Source: Public sector finances from the Office for National Statistics

when one group votes themselves

I'm receiving a state pension. I never voted for the party that instigated the triple lock.

I am 61 and still working, still paying a mortgage. I have never voted Tory and I am getting sick of all this cunty ageist wank.

I am 61 and still working, still paying a mortgage. I have never voted Tory and I am getting sick of all this cunty ageist wank.

Sure, but in your demographic most people did, which is why you have the triple lock.

But what's the point of blaming us? Do you think others of my generation are going to read your post? And then go "Oh no, I've got it all wrong."

Do you blame me individually?

I don't know why some people are so determined to interpret statistical reality as "blame"

I'll lay odds that if you had been born in the 50's you'd have made similar decisions to those of your peers (ie my generation).

Of course I accept statistical reality. Because I face facts. And?

That’s completely illogical. The triple lock was introduced in 2010 just after Cameron half won the GE. It wasn’t a bid to win votes - that ship had sailed. I don’t imagine it had any effect on people in their late 40s as @Fieldofbrokenpromises was then. I personally wish they’d just do away with it, it’s just another weapon to beat boomers with in the intergenerational war.

Exactly. I'm still working too.

I do hope all you young 'uns are making decisions with an eye to the economic situation our decendents will face 50, 40, 30, 20 years in the future

I also think the triple lock should go, but in 2010 it was introduced to help the poorest pensioners, mainly widows born in the inter-war years (or divorced women on the losing end of financial settlements -- DM being a classic example: she continued working until she was 78, because she would have had only the bare minimum otherwise).

Thing is when May was considering getting rid of it she was going to tie it to inflation and the average rise in earnings - it was the 2.5% element that would have been axed. Pensions would still have risen by 10% in April and whatever inflation is next month in April next year.

Incidentally anyone who thinks UK state pensions are over generous should check out some EU countries.

https://www.almondfinancial.co.uk/pension-breakeven-index-how-does-the-uk-state-pension-compare-to-the-rest-of-europe/

Because ‘blame’ is what is being laid by many posters on this thread.
‘The choices made..’ etc. choices? We had no choice. We all work with the financial situation in which we find ourselves.

When you say “I never voted Tory”, I’m assuming it isn’t the huge increase in tax, regulation, Govt interference, Govt contracts for mates etc (ie Tory socialist policies which have made us all poorer) which is your objection?

Labour would have done more of the same. Would you really rather be living in an even poorer country with even more controlling officials?

Or is there a different objection? Is it tribal/ generational?

This is why I’d never vote Tory @Howmuchfurther

What’s crippling the country is the bunch of incompetent, avaricious charlatans who are pretending to run the country while lining their and their cronies’ pockets. The insane amount of our money paying the national debt. Taxation that’s at its highest for 70 years. Liz Truss cost this country £30 billion in 49 days. Looking at a group of the population and blaming them is exactly what they want, while you’re busy doing that they’re getting away with God knows what.

I remember the Blair years when the number of children living in poverty went down every year, when foodbanks weren’t needed and NHS waiting lists were almost non existent. It’s unlikely to ever be that good again in my lifetime but t would be nice to try.

Ok. Agree the Tories did all that (except Liz Truss - that was the BOE’s fault).

You think Labour would not have similarly taken our resources for the parasitic State and I think they would.

Fair enough.