“We paid in all our lives”: AIBU to think, No you didn’t?

[Perlman]

My grandparents are traditional red wall labour voters. Born during WWII to poor families, they live where they grew up. My grandad worked in a factory and my nan worked as a secretary. Like many of their generation, they lived in and bought their council house. Very caring people until it comes to politics. They are hugely racist and advocate for sinking any refugee boats. This is despite the fact that some of their grandparents were refugees from Russia!

They want the triple lock, free bus passes, heating allowance, increased benefits for older people, et cetera. They think anyone who isn’t old who takes benefits is a scrounger and lazy. They say young people can’t afford to buy a house because they are lazy. They have inherited several, but put down their relatively comfortable position in retirement as to their ‘hard work’.

They justify their opinions and entitlement by saying “we paid in all ours lives, it’s our money”. AIBU to think that, well no, not really. You may have paid in money through taxation but clearly they are net beneficiaries of the state. They both had low paid jobs, bought and sold on their council house for a tidy profit, have thankfully lived a long life but with a myriad of expensive to treat health problems. So no, they haven’t paid for what they’re taking!

OK, thanks. Just ignorant rhetoric then.

They sound like my pils neighbours. I’m not sure they’d go quite so far as suggesting all migrants drown, but they learnt early on that pils aren’t receptive to their vile racist opinions. I certainly wouldn’t be surprised to discover they feel they were hard done to as a generation because they were born too late to move to the Deep South and join the klan in its heyday.

As for the inability to acknowledge their luck in having opportunities younger generations don’t, imo it’s not really about their age, because plenty of other older people completely understand reality. It’s more about stupidity/ lack of critical thinking combined with an inflated ego.
Age only comes into it because they’ve had more time to convince themselves of how marvellous they are and how deserving and hard done to etc. And society in general flatters that false opinion.

If as an older millennial I went around pretending the opportunities I’ve had in life compared to most of my generation were the result of my hard work and I felt as taxpayer’s they should be happy to fund the lifestyle I am accustomed to while having less themselves, everyone would soon be very blunt about how ridiculous and entitled I am. But when older people are equally stupid society frowns on pointing it out.
We got a shit deal compared to generation x and the baby boomers. But as a whole we recognise we still had it easier than the younger millennials and generation z. Same as many older people recognise their luck. The problem is that normal people don’t tend to feature in the media or announce their reasonable opinions to anyone and everyone that might listen. It’s always Barbara banging on about how difficult it is to maintain her £600k house on just the one pension and how unfair it is when she worked part time for at least 10yrs that it could be sold to pay for her care.

It is ignorant rhetoric. You'd never get away with saying it about other demographics.

People seem to have very short memories about these things. There were times not so long ago when it was legal to beat/rape your wife or keep people of certain ethnicities as slaves. Now it's just a different group that can be discriminated against without comeback. It's ever changing.

IMO you either respect every demographic equally or you suck it up when you find yourself on the receiving end.

If everyone works hard to support their own family, the country grows richer.

If everyone tries to live by Govt taking stuff from everyone else, the country grows poorer. Then human rights go too.

But you fiercely support your team. It’s human nature.

What’s the point of the country getting richer if those at the top keep all that wealth to themselves? If everyone contributes to the wealth they should all benefit from it.

If everyone contributes to the wealth they should all benefit from it.

Surely you benefit from the wealth you earn, unless you qualify for benefits? Or are we talking a communist type system?

Obviously you don’t if you’re doing a poorly paid but vital job. I honestly thought the pandemic would have taught us something - it was the lowest paid in our society who kept the wheels turning, we certainly discovered who society is really dependent on and it’s not highly paid lawyers and City workers. How quickly we’ve forgotten.

We're talking about 'the wealth you earn'. This by definition doesn't apply to poorly paid people because they don't acquire any wealth.

And I worked all through the pandemic. Did you?

We were actually talking about wealth on a national level, not an individual one. And what business of yours is it if I worked through the pandemic and how is it remotely relevant?

Because you're pompously lecturing a key worker about the importance of key workers lol.

And that's my point. If we're talking about the sharing of national/communal wealth then this potentially sounds communistic/socialist.

Yes, it’s socialist. Absolutely it is. I haven’t lectured anyone, pompously or otherwise.

Yanbu.

I hate this line of "well we paid in". Its a bit like if there's a buffet at a wedding for 100 guests. If the first 30 guests take double portions, there's nor enough left and everyone else only gets half portions. Add to this the first group then saying the group on half portions are lazy whingers for commenting that they are hungry, and you've got the gist.

They paid something in. But it was nowhere near enough to cover what they had back out, and younger generations are being expected to pay more in the make up the shortfall.

Exactly this!

I couldn’t read this whole thread but I am shocked at how many people agree with OP.

How quickly we all start fighting for the crumbs, eh?

Do you not realise that, in a scarily short time, you too will be a pensioner? Will you take your pension or will you give it back? Or will you save any surplus to give to your children and grandchildren?

You scare me

younger generations are being expected to pay more in the make up the shortfall.

That isn’t actually true. Basic rate income tax was 33% when I started work with 9% NI on top. Younger tax payers aren’t making up any shortfall, all the money paid in tax gets spent almost immediately, especially now the interest payments on the massive national debt are through the roof.

Part of the point is that this won’t be available to them when they are pensioners. Just as working life is harder for them now.

9-5 really isn’t. Young people routinely work dreadful hours for less.

I think it’s not wanting it that she minds.
Or even wanting it because others have it.

It’s the moral issue. They are saying that they are owed it through their own efforts.

Of course they want an easy life with nice stuff. It’s honesty about being lucky to have it that I suspect OP would like to see.

Part of the point is that this won’t be available to them when they are pensioners

My aunt, who’d have been 117 now said that in the 1960s. Unless you have a crystal ball, you have no idea what will be available to the pensioners of 50 years hence. It’s highly likely that more will be available, after all there will be far fewer of them.

Wise words. And a lovely thought. Here’s hoping.

I really don’t think that is what is going on. We are being encouraged to see everything through the lens of who we are, at one given point, rather than all the different stages of life we go through.

We are capable, and able to look after the needs of both young and old - the question is why it is presented as an either/or dilemma with pensioners tilting things unfairly in their direction.

That is not, imv, an accurate representation of how are systems function. It may well be an accurate representation of how some people would like them to function however, and it is only achievable when we stop things about ourselves as part of society, rather than just individuals taking out what we need and not putting back.

The people complaining about the triple lock are not recognising that it is essential for many - who remembers a fairly recent story of an elderly woman who died because she was frightened to turn on the heating each evening. That generation also have a different mentality and did work hard, in different ways, in their time.

We were the first generation to be be hit with student loans. The first where housing wasn’t affordable to buy. Since ww2 the first not to be able to access social housing easily. The first where child benefits were means tested. The first where it’s considered normal for working age people to use food banks. The first where two full time adults can struggle to make ends meet and can’t afford to have kids. The first where it’s not unique for kids to be homeless and in temporary accommodation for years. The first where a decent private pension wasn’t easily achievable in an average job. The first where we’re told we really have to pay into employer schemes.
And probably the first to have poorer state pensioners used as justification as to why we should continue to fund the entirety of the wealthiest generation as a whole and buy into the fallacy every single one has somehow earned it and why it should continue.
And we’re still lucky compared to generation z.

I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone of my age, let alone younger, that isn’t convinced we’ll be entirely screwed on retirement age, pensions, the nhs and everything else by the time we need it.

Yes. All of that.

But @Blossomtoes Aunt is right. We can’t see 50 years out.

Maybe things will be significantly better (or worse) than they appear right now.

There isn’t a pleasant career path and life plan for you as there was for the previous two generations. Also no sense of belonging to any system because the system is against you.

It does make you stronger. Hope you make the world a better pace for you own kids when I’m long gone.

Oops!

Replied to wrong post.

Yup etc to yours. Good luck with fixing it all.

@TrainspottingWelsh

because you are viewing the future from where you are now, not how it will appear when you are older

You are the first to have true freedom to study exactly what you want and get funding for it

You are the first to be able to live such different interesting lives and still be integrated into the mainstream

You are the first to have a culture that no longer expects you to follow a certain path of job - marriage - mortgage- children - retirement at a scale where it is really enjoyable

You have technology, and travel and opportunities that so many people dream of and you won the lottery already growing up in an English speaking, developed country.

At work this week, there was a friendly, cheerful woman cleaning the floors. This is a university setting, full of young postgrads, and this woman said hello and started making small talk. She was late 50s/ early 60s, maybe and I kind of felt she needed to talk. She said she was from South Africa and was just so happy to be here. She worried about her daughters who are still there. When I asked why she left, she said the violence. She talked about power cuts throughout each day. This was a woman who was emotionally still so charged and had obviously gone through something. She came here at her age and was working as a cleaner and all she could say was how much she loved it here and it was so peaceful.

I know you have all heard that you should be grateful, etc and that you need to think about what you have rather than what you don’t have but it is true. You can still get a house ( which was never easy to get, never for ordinary people). You can still have a good future - you just need to adjust to what the rules to achieve that are now. As each generation does.

@Howmuchfurther

There isn’t a pleasant career path and life plan for you as there was for the previous two generations. Also no sense of belonging to any system because the system is against you.

For most people, there never was. The last two decades have stunned me as I have lurched from low paid work and high rent and been amazed at the messaging that has been sent out. For some specialised areas, there are set paths that bring their own problems but really all you have lost is the illusion of ease. Now that’s gone, you can actually start getting on with pulling your life into the shape you want it and I do believe, that it is easier to do that night then at any other time in the past - there is less resistance now and that was a major problem for many in the past.

This is just a mindset masquerading as a solution to a problem that is far more complex and multi layered than it seems. And always has been.