“We paid in all our lives”: AIBU to think, No you didn’t?

[Perlman]

My grandparents are traditional red wall labour voters. Born during WWII to poor families, they live where they grew up. My grandad worked in a factory and my nan worked as a secretary. Like many of their generation, they lived in and bought their council house. Very caring people until it comes to politics. They are hugely racist and advocate for sinking any refugee boats. This is despite the fact that some of their grandparents were refugees from Russia!

They want the triple lock, free bus passes, heating allowance, increased benefits for older people, et cetera. They think anyone who isn’t old who takes benefits is a scrounger and lazy. They say young people can’t afford to buy a house because they are lazy. They have inherited several, but put down their relatively comfortable position in retirement as to their ‘hard work’.

They justify their opinions and entitlement by saying “we paid in all ours lives, it’s our money”. AIBU to think that, well no, not really. You may have paid in money through taxation but clearly they are net beneficiaries of the state. They both had low paid jobs, bought and sold on their council house for a tidy profit, have thankfully lived a long life but with a myriad of expensive to treat health problems. So no, they haven’t paid for what they’re taking!

How is this ageist?

Pisses me off no end. You pay in for the benefit of society but individualism reins supreme.

Bit over the top, there! 🙄

I’ve got a relative like this. They get minimal visits and are already cut out of a lot of family events.

Surely that applies to pretty much every post on MN? Most posts are talking about behaviours of friends and family.

but they should get increased pensions above inflation because they paid in.

Just to be clear - this is not what the triple lock lock does (certainly at present) so they are mistaken if that is what they think it is.

Ultimately it’s the fault of a taxation system which continues to break taxation down into income tax and national insurance - the latter giving many people the idea that there’s some sort of designated pot in their name in government coffers which they’ve paid their “stamp” into and that’s where their pension and benefits are coming from. Everything just goes into the same place, so we need to make that clear and stop giving the impression otherwise.

YANBU. I think some people imagine there is a huge imaginary state pot they pay into, part of which is distributed to them when they retire. Infuriating when it comes with a pulling up the drawbridge behind them, I'm All Right Jack attitude.

Worth pointing out it is actually us working people who are paying for their state pension currently, pensioners are by far the biggest users of NHS services, by some way, and by far the biggest benefit recipients (state pension being by far the biggest benefit). But you are likely flogging a dead horse. My DM gets it, my DF definitely didn't.

They don't sound like typical Labour voters

The majority of benefits cost are pensioners, and they have paid to keep the pensioners of the time in pensions payments but dont have a pension "pot".
The vast majority of pensioners are a drain, and increasingly so.

As for sinking of illegal refugee boats, im sure we can do better then that 😆

Their views on race and refugees are abhorrent of course, but they aren't wrong to say that they have 'paid in all their lives'. That was how National Insurance was structured and promoted - as an insurance scheme. You pay in your premiums and you get the benefits. And a key principle of the welfare state is 'contribution according to ability to pay' , so that as people in low-paid jobs they paid less than wealthy people for the benefits they were promised.
Are you implying that if they had high-paid jobs their racism and discontent would be less abhorrent?

I'd also like to say that it isn't only older people who can be racist and who can begrudge the welfare benefits/services provided to people that they consider 'less deserving'. These sentiments are present among people of all ages. It is ageist to suggest that older people are uniquely bad in this respect. So is the stupidly pious claim that older people are more responsible for, and somehow failed to tackle, environmental crises (when the reality is that many of today's older people were yesterday's environmental campaigners - ignored then as much as today's campaigners are flattered, humoured and then ignored).

THe reality is that self-interested politicians and corporations are really, really happy to foment inter-generational hostility and misunderstanding because it deflects they blame from them.

You only need to read posts by scottish nationalists to see how little people understand the state pension. That after scottish independence they will ask rUK for scotlands share of the pension pot. So stupid.

and they think the triple lock is a good idea? If the triple lock is retained forever, at some point in the future there will be a point where state pension payments will take up every single penny of the national expenditure. That’s how daft an idea it is. That’s how fortunate your grandparents are.

Pity they are so oblivious. They sound grim.

What?

So are you saying when you are a pensioner, and you have paid ta and NI for 40+ years, you won't really deserve a pension, because the current work force are actually paying your pension? I don't get your point at all.

Op, they HAVE paid in all their lives. And now they get to retire and be in receipt of a pension. And the same will happen to you.

I have no idea what you're annoyed about (apart from the migrant thing).

tax and NI

This is a bit of an over simplification - some benefits including state pension are contingent upon contributions, and specifically NI contributions.

I assume you will turn down any inheritance they may leave you in their will.

They do know that pensions form the biggest proportion of the welfare benefits that are paid out? It's not the 'scrounging single mums' or refugees who are pushing welfare spending so high!

It’s not the inheritance OP has a problem with. It’s the refusal to acknowledge the privilege they have had and instead chalking their situation up to their own ‘hard work’. There wouldn’t be an issue if they acknowledged they’ve been very lucky compared to others.

Well obviously their views sound unpleasant, racist and selfish. But I hope you won't make the mistake of assuming a whole generation (millions of people) are like your grandparents. That's as silly as the people who say 'all millennials are snowflakes blah blah'.

This. It’s the entitlement that gets me. You’re right- in their situation would indicate that they are net takers from the state. Same with a lot of pensioners- if you argue against the state pension for the wealthy, they are up in arms as they claim “they paid in”. Yet often nothing like enough for a state pension.

This makes me so annoyed too.
All the 'Oh we worked hard to retire early' crap.
Yes as your state pension kicked in at 60.

It's frustrating but if you explained the economics of buying a house now on current salaries versus what they earned/paid they probably wouldn't listen.

My otherwise sensible Ddad ventured the opinion that the council are building new houses specifically for illegal immigrants, just them no-one else. It's straight off a small boat into luxury accommodation with all benefits according to him.
.His local council haven't built new housing in over 30 years for anyone. Logically his knows this but his mates and the local rag he reads trot out this nonsense all the time.
He also knows that some refugees are being housed in an old hotel that had closed and re-opened just for this purpose. He's outraged about that too even though it's a dump with no facilities that had gone bust. Never stayed there, never wanted to but now it's been 'taken' for 'illegals'.

I asked him which it was? Are they getting purpose built flats, or being housed in a 1 star dump?

I hope to fuck we are never in a position where we have to flee our country an rely on the charity of others.

You know paying in isn't just about taxes. My Dh is a high rate tax payer. He also earns money from foreign corporations putting money straight into the economy. My dad worked abroad for quite a few years. Some people questioned whether he should be able to use the nhs. But all the money he earned he sent back home being spent in the uk economy. i work for the nhs so I probably don't pay in as much as i get out but Contribute to society in other ways by doing a job that helps others. Many public servants pay in less than they get out. But they are still contributing. Volunteers, carers. These people also contribute to ouf society.

So are you saying when you are a pensioner, and you have paid ta and NI for 40+ years, you won't really deserve a pension, because the current work force are actually paying your pension? I don't get your point at all.

Op, they HAVE paid in all their lives. And now they get to retire and be in receipt of a pension. And the same will happen to you.

How will the same happen to anyone under 40?
Pension age is moving out although healthy life expectancy hasn't increased, prescriptions won't be free for over 60s as now. NHS won't be the same model, etc, etc,

Lots of people who get pensions now haven't paid 40 yrs of tax & NI. And for those that did the contributions weren't exactly high. I paid NI as a 17 yr old with a holiday/weekend job.

Agree but they will never see it. My parents are exactly the same. They don't say things like sink the boats but they have little sympathy and think that immigration is a problem. They don't for example consider the number of people from overseas working in and propping up our health and social care sector.