Psychopath

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I've just learnt apparently one per cent of the population is a psychopath.
But generally not in the film way (e.g American Psycho) but in an actual mental health way (e.g high impulsivity/low boredom threshold/egocentric/superficially charming/liars).
There's the Hare Checklist which I've got really into.
But what it boils down is that they don't seem to feel emotions.
I can't comprehend this - I get angry and sad and anxious and all the emotions - and am fascinated. One per seems huge.
Does anyone think they know a psychopath? Genuinely? This isn't an AIBU BTW. I'm honestly just really interested.

As I said up thread, whilst I'm well under the threshold for psychopathy, I can definitely see how some psychopathic traits of mine have resulted in a much happier working environment.

(Though maybe that's my self-aggrandizement talking...!)

Basically I took over a workplace toxically fraught with emotion, and dispassionately worked through the problems without getting emotionally bogged down in them. I did things that other leaders I know fight shy of - cutting hours and increasing pay.

Selfishly, I wanted these things for myself. I wanted to work fewer hours, I examined a research base that supported it. I was sick of working with a bunch of whiners, so instead of "getting people out of their comfort zone", I got them to thrive in their comfort zone. The team bloody loved me for it. I stopped micro managing, which was another pervasive culture, because I didn't want to be dragged in on every last thing.

I wanted a non-toxic work environment, a successful company, higher pay. In achieving these things for everyone, I achieved them for myself. I ruthlessly made a executive decisions to sort shit out because frankly I liked having a cushy, well-paid job in walking distance from my home.

It worked. And everyone was much happier - but I didn't do it because of fuzzy sentimental reasons. And I achieved something that the far more empathetic leaders had failed to do for years.

Having had experiences of both, in my opinion Psychopaths are much easier to handle than people with NPD. The former can be somewhat predictable, and you can sometimes comprehend their rationale once you have a bit of familiarity with their personalities and thought processes, whereas the NPD people I've dealt with can be far more unpredictable due to the histrionics, refusal to acknowledge reality, 'gaslighting', and I'd also say that I find them to invariably be even more self-centred than psychopaths.

I've found that I can generally tell when something is going to cause my NPD "chums" to "kick off", but predicting how, exactly, they will choose to "kick off" is difficult. You get the whole gamut of performative emotionality. Crying, tantrums, anger, bitterness, scheming, attention-seeking, sometimes even hilarity and incredulity, but the fact it's such a Pandora's Box means it's not as easy to insulate yourself from them or prepare for how they'll respond to something.

I think I "get" psychopaths a bit more because I share some commonality with them, namely the lack of empathy, dispassionate nature, and ability to regulate emotions, disguise them, compartmentalise them, or not even experience them in the first place. I'd describe it almost like one extreme of emotionality v's the other, and I personally find the absence of emotion, or under-emotionality, far easier to relate to and comprehend.

It's a generalization for sure, but I've found the true narcissists I've met to be much worse to deal with than psychopaths.

Me, too, @Rudderneck - socially and at work, anyway. People with NPD are what we used to call mad (useful word, that!) Psychopaths aren't: they're just brutally logical and often very good fun, too.

In personal relationships at home, my experiences of psychopathy were awful. No amount of wit or pragmatism can compensate for being an unwelcome burden to someone who's supposed to love you but experiments with killing you. At least I could divorce the husband - actually I manoeuvred him into divorcing me. When it's a parent on whom you depend, the damage runs deep.

That said, any parent with a Cluster B condition is going to wreak havoc on their children's psyches.

I'm still catching up on the thread and would like to thank the posters who are talking about their lives with restricted emotional range.

Yeah, I get that and to be honest that's kinda what it needs in those circumstances.

I'm self employed now but when I worked it was always the same, people in management or authority always had some form of emotional bias depending on who they were friend's with and that totally messed with the dynamics of the workforce and caused issues. Whereas those who didn't do that, everyone got on fine, you all knew where you stood.

For myself I think I'm wired differently to most too but not to the extremes of my wife. I have empathy, very strong empathy to the point I can feel others pain, animals too but not for people I don't know.

I can't get worked up about celebrities, other people's lives that I'm not associated with. I don't know them and they don't know me. Family members who I don't see hardly ever, the same. More of a case of well they don't ever contact me, they know nothing about me and I'm the same so why worry. So, I have trouble when family talk about other family members like I should care deeply...but I can't they are essentially strangers.

I find it hard to trust people, I can talk to most people but not truly trust unless they are close. My partner is the only person I can genuinely open up to and trust and I would never cheat, it doesn't come into my mind I actively avoid situations and find it offensive if someone was to try and get me to.

Generally, I can see consequences and often find I can see patterns or future consequences or outcomes ahead of other people. Like my circumstance now, I said this would all happen from the start, I've been ten steps ahead of my wife from the start but nobody believed me. Well it all happened, everything I said came to be, including the order. Albeit totally illogical, I'm playing a strategic game of mind chess with her while everyone else is kinda oblivious to be honest. That's the difference between me and her and always has been, I can think logically and she cannot.

Likewise, I have absolutely no favouritism in me and can see right from wrong. Doesn't matter how close I am to someone, if it's wrong it's wrong and if someone is in the right, they are right, regardless of friendship.

Selfishness is something I don't have in me and that's why I'm in this mess. I'm often putting others needs before mine, which is weird in a way because it doesn't fit the rest of me.

It makes sense. In every human tribe, it would have been useful to have a percentage of people who were more ruthless than others.

I'm not a clinician, but I always thought psychopathy was innate, ie. something you're born with, and not modifiable, whereas narcissism is more an issue of arrested emotional development. Narcissists are low on empathy in the same way toddlers are low on empathy - they're just extremely focussed on themselves and what they want. As I understand it, narcissism can be caused by environmental factors and poor parenting, although I suspect there's often a genetic predisposition in there too.

In every human tribe, it would have been useful to have a percentage of people who were more ruthless than others.

It was interesting when Boris Johnson was brought into the discussion earlier, because although I think he's a Grade A twat, I think that there would have been certain discussions around Covid that would be impossible for normal people to reconcile.

Like choosing between courses of action that meant that different types of people would die...

We actually did theoretical exercises in interviews about Plane Crash scenarios, and the purpose of the exercise was actually just to see how you discussed things in a group, how you negotiated/advocated for your idea.

Two things I noticed were:

1. Someone always got super emotional about the imaginary people and wouldn't participate.
2. The exact same four would always get chosen - a family of three including an epileptic child, and a survivalist tasked with taking care of them. And there would always be someone biting their tongue off (or not) pointing out that taking the child was fine, taking the mother was fine (nurse with some survival skills), but that adding the father so as not to split the family up was insane and likely to sink all four of them (can't remember why but he was a liability). But that was always the decision reached.

I can see why you make an exceptional manager/leader. What happens when staff come to you for emotional support with depression, their cat died etc? Are they scared of you so easily complying? I can see how this might work if you a good HR team to deal with the human side of staff, I can also see why your company would value your skills.

I agree with you in the large part, there is an awful lot of noise with someone with NPD and it’s totally exhausting and draining in a way it never is with someone with psychopathy.

Life with a psychopath is actually more straight forward, you learn not to piss them off in any way at all (and you might not always know what that days buttons might be) and then you might just navigate an egg shell path through gingerly for some of the time, but it’s littered with grenades and landmines. There is a sense of fairness and justice I have noticed too, they will never ever be swayed by an emotional angle or pandering. They will ruthlessly assess rather than jump to any conclusions.

I would like us to consider the psychopaths that did not have access to good education, did not find themselves in positions or authority and/or even personal autonomy. The lowly psychopaths that could not get a foothold in management and silently seethe. Imagine that’s your scenario for a moment. They don’t lead with their analytical minds, but are ordered around by some idiot jobs worth that didn’t deserve the role, do you know what happens when they need to tolerate this level of frustration day in any day out?

They absolutely explode.
On a regular basis, and no one wants to see that when it happens trust me.

Not every person with psychopathy is a surgeon or trader at Goldmans, many work in normal jobs in factories or menial jobs and this is the very worst combination.

People who are psychopaths aren't necessarily out to get anyone, and they aren't necessarily immoral either. They also are ot necessarily incapable of love and affection, though it's not always as strong as in other people.

For example, emotion is not the only way to understand right and wrong. You can also understand it through rational processes, and psychopaths can be perfectly capable of that. In some instances, it's even a benefit, because emotion can sometimes create poor moral reasoning. It's also possible to see the value in moral precepts and social order from experience - seeing that society is better when people generally follow the rules and even help each other.

Narcissists on the other hand are, in my experience, driven to use others for their own validation, and as such they are constantly looking to bend others and manipulate them to that end.

Not every person with psychopathy is a surgeon or trader at Goldmans, many work in normal jobs in factories or menial jobs and this is the very worst combination

This is true.

Many, many years ago, I worked with young man who, in hindsight, was very clearly a psychopath.

He worked in a very ordinary, minimum-wage level retail role, still lived with his parents, no evidence of a friendship group, or any of the things you would associate with a man of his age. Obviously, that could just be because he was a bit introverted or unconventional, but what made it obvious there was a lot more to him was the way he interacted with customers.

This was a role where he was often the only member of staff on duty, so his behaviours were not always witnessed, which is why he would get away with it for a while, at least, before it was addressed.

I am not talking about general rudeness, indifference, laziness, or apathy. This chap used to regularly shout and swear at customers, challenge them to 'hurry up', 'stop wasting his time', 'make their minds up' and so on, and not in an exasperated manner, but in a very belligerent manner. I saw him threaten customers with physical violence, and this was all accompanied by chest-puffing, staring, grimacing, brow-furrowing etc etc. All the typical actions of young men when they are angered to the point that they intend violence.

Of course, this did eventually lead to his sacking, and at that point, he returned to his workplace, dressed in full football kit, socks and all, accompanied by his mother, demanding to 'have it out' with management. So far as he was concerned, he had done nothing wrong, and the customers were entirely to blame for 'driving' him to the point whereby he would act like this. They deserved it as far as he was concerned.

Now again, I accept that could have been down to something other than Psychopathy, but what stood out for me is that he did not differentiate between strong and weak people. He would bellow at small children, old people, and huge men alike who would clearly have ripped him in two with their bare hands. He had absolutely no fear, or at least, he showed no ability to recognise when he was completely out of his depth in terms of when the implied threats were liable to land him in serious trouble.

I often wonder what became of him, because I heard from other people that this wasn't just his personality in the workplace, and that he treated everyone he interacted with in this way regardless of setting. He wasn't in any discernible way deficient in cognition or learning, on the contrary, I would have said he presented as being of average, typical intelligence and ability. Somewhat bizarrely, he wasn't even an intimidating presence physically, being of completely average build and stature, and looking like a bit of a "nerd".

I used to wonder if he was just seriously mentally ill, but things like the football kit just confirmed for me that he genuinely had no concept of how he appeared or presented to other people, and that he could not rationalise why his own attitude used to rub them up the wrong way.

I'd be shocked if I found out that he isn't either deceased, institutionalised, or heavily into incel culture or somesuch, because he was the epitome of the very angry incel decades before there was any notion of such a thing.

Yes, I mean, people with more deficits are much more likely to be problems.

In a way, lack of emotional range is a bit like poor vision. It makes certain things harder.

If the individual is also rather stupid, or comes from an abusive background, or had other significant disadvantages, it will be that much harder to compensate for what's missing, and any advantages will be much less evident too. At some point what you have is just a messed up individual.

Well, in that case the charm and ability to fake emotions came into play... Believe it or not mine were popular shoulders to quite literally cry on. Or rant at about others. I got annoyingly strong reputation as a fixer of all problems - which did eventually take its toll on me, because everyone came to me for everything.

The HR woman was the one who actually caused one of the first big issues, and was actually a vicious bitch to me when I wouldn't divulge confidential board information to me.

(I'm not actually an emotionless robot you see, by the way! I just didn't "do" it at work, especially as it was patently obvious how badly skewed the emotional relationships were in the organization were. There were others who were similarly withdrawn, because I'm talking about an environment where people would literally yell at each other for hours.)

I know one, he's in jail for attempted murder.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX That's what I experienced of potential NPD, I knew what would be a trigger but would never know what the tool of choice would be, so to speak.

I have seen anger from plenty of people, including massive meat house men but I have never seen anything like the levels of rage as that. Like a raw primal anger without limits.

All the other tricks in that box are bad enough but that rage is something else.

And you really don’t think they see through your fake behaviour? That it doesn’t leak through in ways you can’t see ? They don’t pick up on your lack of feeling or question your faux concern?

Well, if you read my posts thoroughly you might have picked up on a couple of things:

1. I don't meet many of the traits for psychopathy, and the situation did take a big emotional toll on me eventually, faking or not.
2. I am not actually an emotionless robot. I am just examining my emotional detachment and compartmentalisation in a specific work scenario.

You're giving quite a lot of weight to my clinical, detached assessment of my behaviour, but I feel that I've also tried to be clear that this isn't the full picture of who I am.

And to be honest - yes, I think I did an adequate job of faking responses in situations. Especially where it was a "shit, someone is crying on my shoulder, what do I do" moment. People told me when they had problems with me or my decisions to my face, so I doubt fear was an element. And they heartily took the piss out of me too!

And most of all, I made people happy with actions, not words. I don't think it's that mad to think that people who took the piss, spoke straight to me, and who were enjoying a cut in work hours, increased pay, increased autonomy and above all, a workplace where people didn't scream at each other believed that I was a good and caring boss for making decisions that benefited them.

This sounds a bit like autism.
Strong empathy and caring, but only with people you know and are close to. Logic and strategic thinking, to the point of almost 'seeing the future' because you see the patterns and how they will play out. Strong sense of right and wrong. Unselfish and basically kind.

@JibbaJab

Yes, its the total unpredictability of NPD that I find difficult. Both types can be harmful, toxic, nasty, abusive, etc etc, but like I said before, I can almost comprehend the thought processes of psychopaths because they tend toward clinical, no-nonsense, black or white decisions, whereas NPD is often totally irrational and will create merry hell over perceived slights that simply do not exist, and it's sometimes only well after the fact and with a lot of distance that you realise just how disturbed and removed from reality NPD 'logic' can be.

A previous OP mentioned psychopaths often having a strong moral code, and very firm sense of justice, or what is 'right and wrong', and I would agree with that. There is always an arbitrary element to it, and even then I can understand that because I personally struggle to empathise with any situation that I have no personal experience of, but I will fight tooth and nail for anyone that has been through a circumstance that I have personally experienced and felt was unfair or unjust. It's not a 'sense of justice' in the same way that people think of legal justice, more a 'personal concept of natural justice'.

With NPD, there is no 'set of rules', because the grievance will be an outrage to them one day, but then they will happily administer the same treatment to another person the next day, with seemingly no recognition of the fact that they were distraught about experiencing the same thing themselves. What is claimed to be right or wrong is completely scattergun and changes on a whim.

With NPD I've always felt that there's an arbitrary pettiness, contradictory willingness to play hard and fast with what is right and wrong, and calculated degree of malicious, devious, nastiness that isn't necessarily there in psychopaths, but I would follow that up by saying the spite doesn't always manifest itself as big, grand, long-term schemes to undo a 'rival', it's often just ridiculously petty, infantile, immature, and see-through nonsense, but NPD's seem to live for it, which I just can not understand.

As well as being dispassionate and detached, I also have absolutely no tolerance for 'drama', but the NPD people I spent time around seem to thrive on it and positively require it in order to have a purpose, whereas I just laugh at the petty, infantile, simple-minded nature of it and walk away. Drama-llamas I just roll my eyes at, because I honestly can not see the point myself, yet both NPD's in my life would be described as "Drama llamas" by anyone who knew them reasonably well.

*play fast and loose, obvs

Yeah, I've had it suggested that I am as both my children are Autistic but it's hard to get a referral.

I've always been like it since a young age, I think differently, never really fit in with others and I'm fairly solitary. I don't have friends or need them, the only thing I seek is a relationship and a family of my own...which I had but I seemed to have chose a narcissist and they've been taken from me. >.<

Never quite understood loss until now.

Oh yeah it's a very much a case of a loose cannon firing drama that does not exist, then being spiteful, vindictive and in my case violent over it.

You can do something nice and caring for them and an hour later you are seen as uncaring. Absolutely no appreciation or gratitude for anything, it's quite disgusting to be honest.

It's not even things you have done either they actually go out of their way to construct situations themselves in order to create conflict. Or, they demand you do something like a day out or holiday even though it doesn't make sense to do at the time but you can't refuse so you do, only for them not to want to be there and destroy the entire time for no reason at all.

There is no logic to it and at the levels I had it was pure insanity, there's no other way to look at it. I had instances of some issue being brought up, belittling, spitting venom with demonic looks. You're there trying to discuss calmly, figuring out what the issue is, only for the issue to become something else entirely. All the while you are calm you're being accused of being aggressive. You say...but hear how you are talking to me, look at your current state, I'm not being like that, you are shouting, I am not. Only for them to scream in your face, denying they are shouting.

They are not firing on all cylinders at all and there is in some cases like mine, a sadistic element to it where they get off on physically hurting or doing things to you when you are not aware.

You ever see them blankly gazing off lost with a sinister smirk on their face and you are like....what's so funny? Huh, what...oh... nothing.... nothing.

Hmm.

Psychopathy although I'm not as versed in it but by what I have read and previous posters viewpoints, makes sense to me in a way.

That to me is similar to how I think in certain aspects but perhaps on a broader scale. A logical view with clear understanding of consequence, even if it is only for their own benefit, there's reason there and they act accordingly. I would rather talk to a psychopath than a narcissist, and would likely appreciate the raw truth or unfiltered opinion than smoke and mirrors.

Like the previous poster who said about their view with leaving a baby outside if there was no consequences. Most people would be appalled just reading that. I can read that and appreciate their honesty in even writing it, I don't agree with it but it's not actually happened, that baby doesn't exist, hopefully. A view into someone elses mindset, a mindset totally opposite of mine, it's interesting.

I'm sure there are dangerous psychopaths out there but not sure how common that is in reality. Serial killer wise I suppose you could say that perhaps psychopaths would be more effective at it than a narcissist. I don't think a narcissist could keep up with everything they had done to get a decent run in. They would lose themselves in their own web of lies or make so many mistakes they would slip up.

@JibbaJab

I also recognise the seething rage you describe.

I found that the NPD I spent the most time around could not, in any way, cope reasonably with being 'defied'. Again, it was often something completely petty and inconsequential, and the sort of thing that any typical person might do without giving any conscious thought to.

So, for example, put the teaspoons into the cutlery tray facing in a certain direction, or do not remove that perfectly innocent and appropriate reference book from the shelf, read part of it, then return it to exactly the same place. I told you not to close the curtains. That sort of thing.

I don't believe it was actually about 'control', because in many other ways they could be entirely affable and laid back, it was more about being unable to appropriately process the emotions of anyone defying their express instruction, no matter how petty or inane the instruction or action was.

This would invariably provoke a seething rage in them, they would completely lose self-control, descend into an almost psychotic frenzy. Eyes bulging, barely able to string together a sentence, finger right in your face, and then the blows to the head would begin.

What I do remember is that oftentimes, the instruction would be so trifling that I would often forget entirely it had been made in the first place, only to find out hours or days after the fact, that I had transgressed, and of course, it only became apparent exactly what ridiculous instruction I had defied once the raging started. I remember once being left with a ringing ear because I had inadvertently left a curly telephone cable twisted.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX Yep, anything and everything down to insignificant minor things that are done innocently. However, to them it wasn't done innocently, you did that on purpose just to wind them up.

I've had that with say curtain's and also found liked to have them drawn even in the day, living like a vampire. Curtains not straight, even, slight crack end of the world, rage.

Incredibly lazy as well to the point don't even put things away or drop packets in the floor and leave them there until you do it, could leave them there days. Extremely stubborn.The only time I found did any sort of cleaning was when I did an inadequate job, while they inspect. Would then redo everything I did, which was already done and then rage about it.

I had this running thing where bedroom would eventually end up a dump to the point I would have to do a deep clean just to breathe, while they were out socializing. Spend the entire day, make it nice, even lit candles as a nice gesture. Only for them to need a specific top, and proceed to empty the entire contents of the room back out again. Would then have to clean again in order to go to bed.

Impossible people to live with, seemingly unable to just exist without stress or some form of dramatic chaos. They do thrive on it, peace and stability does not compute.

I am definitely not autistic. I can read emotions perfectly; my emotional intelligence is high, and I’ve never struggled to fit in in social situations. I can connect emotionally with people quite easily, it’s just there’s not an awful lot I actually care about whereas I find the majority of people spend too much time caring and it weighs them down. I do love my children and husband deeply, and I care about other people being happy, but more on a practical level: happy people = nice, neat, well running society. Also, neither of my children have any autistic traits, although one of them is highly intelligent and rather low empathy like me. We counteract this with a lot of love and talk about empathy and kindness towards others, and he is a very affectionate child.

Honestly, I think it is a sliding scale and - with the wrong upbringing - maybe people like us would be different, but I see myself as a very balanced person. I just like efficiency, and emotions are often incompatible with that. I am fully aware however that in terms of work from a management perspective, I work well when partnered with someone opposite - I can be ruthless and impatient, so tempering that creates the perfect team.