Psychopath

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I've just learnt apparently one per cent of the population is a psychopath.
But generally not in the film way (e.g American Psycho) but in an actual mental health way (e.g high impulsivity/low boredom threshold/egocentric/superficially charming/liars).
There's the Hare Checklist which I've got really into.
But what it boils down is that they don't seem to feel emotions.
I can't comprehend this - I get angry and sad and anxious and all the emotions - and am fascinated. One per seems huge.
Does anyone think they know a psychopath? Genuinely? This isn't an AIBU BTW. I'm honestly just really interested.

@Rudderneck Have you found like me that there's something quite delusional and evil deep within a Narcissist, under all of the layers?

I personally think a narcissist is more of a threat myself but I may be biased.

In what way would you consider a narcissist worse than a psychopath? I am curious as to how you have come to that conclusion.

My mother is a covert narcissist, she was unable to fully understand the pain we were suffering, it was all about her and her terrible life.
My father would play his role with periods of adulation he didn’t feel or mean, she would play the victim - his victim - but it could be any victim role as long as it could elicit sympathy and attention. It was a toxic dynamic that meant that everything centred around them. They barely looked or noticed the outside world or their own children in the game of cat and poor helpless mouse.

However my mother never posed a direct and violent threat to us, she never had capacity to put us first and protect us, but she did not have the ability to cause real and lasting harm in the way by psychopathic father could. He didn’t care about anything, so of course he is more dangerous.

I don’t agree a narcissist is somehow worse, that is my personal experience, mainly because they do have some inkling of pain in all it’s forms and guilt but psychopaths in my experience generally do not have any genuine understanding of either.

I do think there is a deeper issue with pathologising every unpleasant facet of human behaviour. One of the reasons why personality disorders are so hard to diagnose is because each symptom can also be found in those with a normal human psychology. Oftentimes, if not most times, an arsehole is just an arsehole, no personality disorder required.

I do think that is something humans struggle with on a number of levels, hence the desire to separate those aspects and make them ‘other’, as if humans would be otherwise incapable of the worst things they do. I also think that people feel they have to call someone that has done them wrong disordered, as if the wrongdoing isn’t serious or doesn’t count unless the wrongdoer can considered disordered.

Interestingly I also found that when there were several narcissists/ psychopaths in a work place instead of destroying each other they tended to band together and work as a team . I am also very wary of people who are overly friendly very quickly They usually want something from you , usually a lift to work or to swap days / departments with you . It's best to try and go under the radar, keep your personal life to yourself.

Aren't many surgeons and bankers psychopaths?

Just Googled it. Wikipedia has an entire page on it called Psychopathy in the workplace.

It says that the ten careers with the highest proportion of psychopaths are:

CEO
Lawyer
Media (TV/radio)
Salesperson
Surgeon
Journalist
Police officer
Clergy
Chef
Civil servant

I saw a doc once that a high number of surgeons and CEOs are psychopaths.

Generally, to reach the top, you have to have some sort of lack of emotion because that's what seems to get in the way of fighting to be the best.

whumpthereitis - it’s perfectly possibly to receive a clinical diagnosis for psychopathy and narcism in all its forms. Assessments by trained psychologists and psychiatrists that can tell the difference between a behaviour on a normal spectrum and those that differ.

My colleagues report particular difficulty with narcissistic clients due their inability to ‘see’ their own narcissistic traits, as a result they are very hard to treat. Many have tried and failed.

@whumpthereitis Oh absolutely, there doesn't always need to be a label some people are just selfish arseholes. Everyone is capable of exhibiting narcissistic traits at some point, we all have that in us, same I'm sure as psychopathic traits as well exist in most people to some degree.

Problem is now labels are everywhere, seemingly running from one to the other as a buzz word and that seems to be the case with narcissism, hot topic.

However, that makes it difficult when you are actually trying to figure out if it is say NPD because of all the overwhelming articles about it that say all sorts.

I mean besides past behavior and character in general that align my circumstance is fairly unique in the way it's playing out right now where anyone with any sense would have knocked it on the head. I would go as far to say a psychopath would be able to see the situation makes no sense and wouldn't benefit them and would change their course. This instead has got to delusional levels of avoiding fault, accepting reality and the realistic outcome that I can only conclude to being NPD territory.

“whumpthereitis - it’s perfectly possibly to receive a clinical diagnosis for psychopathy and narcism in all its forms. Assessments by trained psychologists and psychiatrists that can tell the difference between a behaviour on a normal spectrum and those that differ.”

I’m referring to psychopathy not being recognised in the current DSM, or by the International Classification of Diseases 10.

But yes, psychiatrists and psychologists with experience in personality disorders have to be the ones to diagnose after thorough evaluation. AFAIK it requires more than one to make the diagnosis as well.

“I mean besides past behavior and character in general that align my circumstance is fairly unique in the way it's playing out right now where anyone with any sense would have knocked it on the head. I would go as far to say a psychopath would be able to see the situation makes no sense and wouldn't benefit them and would change their course. This instead has got to delusional levels of avoiding fault, accepting reality and the realistic outcome that I can only conclude to being NPD territory.”

Obviously I don’t know the ins and outs but yes, I would agree with this based on what you’ve said.

A Narcissist needs for people to believe them, they need other people to validate the image they have created of themselves. They are frightened of being caught out and of being thought badly of. While this wouldn’t hurt a psychopath, a narcissist would feel it as a deep wound to what is essentially a very vulnerable ego. Defence against this wont be logical, rather it’s led by emotion.

It won’t actually occur to a narcissist that they’re in any way in the wrong, and they likely absolutely believe what they’re claiming. Unlike a psychopath, a narcissist will delude themselves, not just those around them.

@whumpthereitis Appreciate your view.

Yes I can't divulge much but essentially it's historically been emotional knee jerk reactions rather than logical. So, rather than a lack of emotion that would perhaps expect in a psychopath, it's been overwhelming amount of emotion that after the incident is concealed one way or another into non existence.

This now is the same in that I believe I made the mistake of telling them the truth about themselves as I had enough of being manipulated. A result of that was at first emotional defensive anger which then led to a completely new image that never existed before, a new narrative has been created that paints me as dangerous and them the victim. However, the way it's unfolded makes no logical sense to everyone involved legally, everything is contradictory and massive holes in the narrative. Despite of evidence, they have since doubled down on it and now carrying on as if none of it is happening at all and living a false life in a bubble.

Almost as if, if I just ignore it will go away or doesn't exist at all.

I understand what you mean, but why is a ‘logical’ defence more superior to an ‘enotion’ led one?

Secondly, I can’t see a fragile, vulnerable ego being more dangerous than one that has no feeling?

Obviously there is a range for both disorders.

’Labels’ are important leading to diagnosis, treatment and informed decisions around medication, safe guarding and support. Many clients are relieved by knowing, certainly beneficial to family and loved ones that are living with it too.

“I understand what you mean, but why is a ‘logical’ defence more superior to an ‘enotion’ led one?

Secondly, I can’t see a fragile, vulnerable ego being more dangerous than one that has no feeling?

Obviously there is a range for both disorders.

’Labels’ are important leading to diagnosis, treatment and informed decisions around medication, safe guarding and support. Many clients are relieved by knowing, certainly beneficial to family and loved ones that are living with it too.”

Personal preference I suppose. A logical one can at least be followed and understood. An emotional one is at best unpredictable, and can quickly veer into absolutely batshittery.

Yes, if a diagnosis has been correctly applied. Psychopathy and NPD cannot be diagnosed based on second hand information, or by anyone that doesn’t have the necessary qualifications and experience. Diagnosing a personality disorder takes time, it requires a thorough investigation of someone’s entire life, and more than one professional needs to be involved. You can diagnose the vast majority of, if not all, people with a personality disorder if you cherry pick specific incidences without considering the wider context of the entire person.

I recognize what is being described with in the behaviour, @whumpthereitis from an experience of my own.

A highly manipulative individual, but also quite self-deceiving and unable to shake the idea that I was bad, malicious and wrong, even with documentary proof.

He had got the wrong end of the stick in a particular business meeting - which fair enough, wasn't entirely his fault. A different person had been a little unclear, and was supposed to outline specific terms to him, but didn't.

However, he latched onto me as the one responsible for a scenario that didn't even exist. He harassed, plotted and pursued me based on that misconception. Even when it was conclusively proven that I had never planned or intended for the scenario he imagined, he was too emotionally attached to his plan of destruction to drop it. And he had whipped up staff in his own business to hate me too - quite disturbing, really.

A logical reaction to seeing clear cut proof of my intentions would have been to stop, not to double down.

Funnily enough, long before this he had mentioned the emotional reactions of other members of staff, and I had joked, "sure, whilst I am cold and emotionless like a snake" - and he agreed! He found my impartiality and professionalism cold, and identified a lot with the more emotional reactions - in spite of considering himself good, worthy and logical.

@Remembermynamealways Well I can only reference my experience but an emotional reaction to a situation that has absolutely no logic to it is dangerous or has detrimental consequences. Either to themselves or those around or both.

Someone who is reacting purely off of extreme levels of emotion, say anger, is capable of doing a lot of damage or harm without thinking of the fallout from their actions or behavior. From what I have witnessed it wasn't just an emotional response in the general sense, it was hysterical whether that be sadness or anger, the actions that followed, logic or reason did not come into it. Akin to seeing red and just on auto pilot lost in their emotions.

For someone who is that fragile deep down to the point they have to go to extreme lengths to protect it, can be dangerous. It's not like the person is just fragile and weak, they are in reality but wrapped around that is all the defensive layers there to protect that ego that can do all manner of things to protect it.

A psychopath I would think from what I understand wouldn't respond emotionally and would perhaps be more able to see consequences of whatever actions they were considering of doing as not to have a detrimental effect on themselves.

Again, different levels not all psychopaths are dangerous or murders.

Yes it’s your personal preference but it wouldn’t necessarily be other people’s personal preference. For instance I am a facts based person for that reason. ‘Logic’ can corrupted by agendas, as well as emotional defences can be manipulated or tainted by perspective and/or bias and experience. Both defences are vulnerable to manipulation, malicious or otherwise.

I can see why being labelled a psychopath might not be ideal, given it’s negative reputation in society, but as we can see by this thread many are successful, highly educated individuals that have found ways to use their differences to their advantage.

*on this thread

Also the problem is if the person is say NPD then willingly getting a diagnosis goes against everything they believe in themselves, they won't unless they happen, I believe, have a defining moment that leaves no one else to blame but themselves.

Even then, how does someone diagnosing not get led down the garden path by masks or personas behaving as if they are perfectly fine or so emotional you can't make heads nor tails of it.

I mean I'm sure there must be indicators they are aware of but it's confusing all the same.

“Also the problem is if the person is say NPD then willingly getting a diagnosis goes against everything they believe in themselves, they won't unless they happen, I believe, have a defining moment that leaves no one else to blame but themselves.

Even then, how does someone diagnosing not get led down the garden path by masks or personas behaving as if they are perfectly fine or so emotional you can't make heads nor tails of it.

I mean I'm sure there must be indicators they are aware of but it's confusing all the same.”

I believe a lot normally get diagnosed as a result of getting in trouble with the law.

Yes, psychiatrists and psychologists can and do get fooled. That’s another reason why it takes expertise in personality disorders, a long time, more than one opinion, a lot of observation and a deep dive into a patients history. It takes quite a lot.

“Yes it’s your personal preference but it wouldn’t necessarily be other people’s personal preference. For instance I am a facts based person for that reason. ‘Logic’ can corrupted by agendas, as well as emotional defences can be manipulated or tainted by perspective and/or bias and experience. Both defences are vulnerable to manipulation, malicious or otherwise.

I can see why being labelled a psychopath might not be ideal, given it’s negative reputation in society, but as we can see by this thread many are successful, highly educated individuals that have found ways to use their differences to their advantage.”

Sure, I didn’t say otherwise 🤷🏻‍♀️ what you consider better or worse is up to you.

and absolutely, I mentioned earlier that there is a school of thought that psychopathy isn’t necessarily a disorder but an adaptation.

I have every faith in our mental health services to complete competent and accurate assessments for those requiring them, they are experienced and more than capable of noticing and recording masking etc.

Are you uncomfortable with psychopathy or diagnosis? I am not sure what the issue is here.

An adaption of what?

Evolutionary advantage. It’s a school of thought.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34605282/

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2013.00139/full

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-sciences/article/is-it-good-to-be-bad-an-evolutionary-analysis-of-the-adaptive-potential-of-psychopathic-traits/D3BF1647779B06D0B16018C0CC13FCA0

an interesting read too.

Was a while ago now but I read a theory that was similarly interesting in that evolution wise we could potentially, further down the line, become more along the lines of psychopaths with feelings and emotions less prevalent to progress more effectively as a human race.

As in, less emotions or own views influencing decision making but more strategic and logical way of thinking.

How that would actually pan out though, who knows. Suppose, could also be a disaster.