To be SO frustrated by threads like this…

[Firstworldprobs]

First of all I want to make it crystal clear that I am not frustrated with the OPs of these threads, I am frustrated for them. I don’t blame them one bit.

There seems to be a steady stream of threads that go something like this:

OP: Asks if she is being unreasonable then describes the situation whereby it is indisputable that it’s in fact her DH / DP who is being unreasonable.

PPs: With their spidey senses tingling as they detect potential gaslighting / narcissism / manipulation / abuse / coercive control / fuckwittery, ask OP for more details and also ask what the DH is usually like, and reassure OP unanimously that she is not being unreasonable.

OP: Gives more background info and history that confirms that PPs were correct, there is a pattern of abuse / fuckwittery and/or a whole childhood full of neglect / abuse - meaning that OP is completely brainwashed and browbeaten and believes that this behaviour is normal and she cannot trust her gut and has to put up with it (and so do her kids).

PPs: Rally round OP, explaining (again, unanimously) that OP does not need to endure the abuse / mistreatment / misery for one day longer and would be completely justified in LTB no matter what he says. Suggest if she cannot find the strength to leave for herself, them do it for her children who deserve to live happily and have good role models - advice to break generational cycles.

OP: Is terrified at the idea, due to having zero self esteem, no support, or having been gaslit and manipulated to within an inch of her life into believing she needs DH to survive and won’t find anyone else, can’t afford to leave etc and is convinced she and her kids are trapped.

PPs: give reassurance that OP can LTB. Give OP details of practical, real life support agencies, websites, Women’s Aid, Freedom Programme, books, scripts for what to say to police / DH, advice on legal aid for solicitors, getting ducks in a row, securing important documents, confide in real life friends or family etc etc

OP: Starts backtracking and offering examples of how her DH is not that bad / is a good dad / might be depressed or ND / can be really nice to her sometimes / always apologises etc.

PPs: Continue to reassure OP that her relationship is toxic / abusive and damaging her and her kids and there are ways to leave and support out there.

OP: Never returns to the thread, perhaps deciding that their bar is lower than they realised and they are doomed to this life.

Very occasionally, the OP will return to confirm that they have found the strength to leave, have taken PPs’ advice, called Woman’s Aid or a solicitor, and have ended the relationship. These threads are so satisfying, PPs rejoice that OP has taken their advice and changed her life for the better, one less abused woman! One more single shitty man. Amazing. But they are the minority.

What are we doing when girls are raised to be compliant, nice, submissive, people pleasing ghosts? How do we raise girls to be sure of their value, have high standards and expectations, unwavering instincts and the confidence to listen to them, and to refuse to put up with this toxic bullshit from men? How do we raise boys to have integrity, to see girls as human beings, to be non violent, unselfish, compassionate people?

I am so frustrated on behalf of all the OPs out there who, despite unanimous, practical and compassionate support on MN, cannot appreciate their value or raise that bar for what they will tolerate from a man?

I don’t blame the OPs one bit - I blame their parents, previous partners, and society. It’s utterly heartbreaking.

AIBU?

Completely agree.
It starts young, with casual sexism starting as babies, continues through primary school where girls have higher expectations on behaviour, and it’s not uncommon to find girls seated next to boisterous boys to try to calm them down.
Then onto secondary school, where sexual harassment is rife and schools rarely handle incidents appropriately. (Eg at DD’s school a boy (who gave me the chills from age 13) would go up behind girls and pretend to choke them, often hurting them. School called it “monkey love” - a boy behaving badly towards girls because he didn’t know how to handle his emotions and feelings - and nothing was done about it.
Fast forward to adulthood where banter and rape jokes are normal, where any suggestion that men should be held responsible for crap male behaviour results in lots of “NAMALT” and “not my Nigel…”.
It’s the elephant in the room that cannot be discussed in the depth that is required.
Meanwhile women who’ve learnt their lessons well are unable to escape truly shit situations because they’ve been taught so well to be kind.

I wondered where you were going with this and then near the end of your post you ask, what I think, are the right questions. We definitely need to give girls confidence in their worth and the encouragement to trust their instincts.

The conditioning continues into adulthood and sadly too many women participate in it. There are so many threads here where women will discuss being taken for granted by numerous different types of people and there will always be plenty of posters telling OP she's being selfish, they would be fine with the situation described or a request for OP to quantify the harm or inconvenience caused by putting someone else first. It's quite depressing sometimes.

However the benefit of the type of threads you're highlighting is that there may be other women reading who find the OP's situation relatable and use the advice given to change their own lives for the better. Sometimes it's takes a while for the OP to absorb the reality of her own situation once it's been pointed out but it does ultimately lead to her leaving even if it's not immediately.

Take heart, the relationship advice given on MN is never wasted even if the OP isn't ready to hear it at the time they post.

Take heart, the relationship advice given on MN is never wasted even if the OP isn't ready to hear it at the time they post.

Thank you, this is what I tell myself whenever another one disappears back anonymously into their [awful] real life.

It’s so fucking depressing that being in a relationship, usually with a man is still so normalised and reinforced with the threat of economic and other insecurities that the happier and safer alternative of freedom, singlehood is somehow the scary option.

I’ve definitely benefited from reading MN threads.

What I want to know is why does it get so much easier to be bold around the time of perimenopause?

It’s amazing what reproductive hormones encourage us to put up with earlier in life. That’s my theory!

@WhenSomedayComes I think you are right there. Just this overwhelming tendency to make excuses for bad behaviour, try to see reasons why bad behaviour is rational and being afraid to make demands.

100% this.

Yes you are right

Whenever people say MN is shit and mean, I think well even if you hate the rest of it when it comes to this it is not shit and not mean.

As a PP said I don’t think those threads are ever wasted. Seeds get planted and other people who wouldn’t think of posting also read them.

I've had to stop commenting on threads like that because the passivity of some posters is off the scale and I find it really really frustrating. I totally agree that we should be teaching our girls to be more confident, independent and have strong boundaries (it's certainly how I've brought my own DD up). Personally I think every girl should have the option to go to an all girls school from secondary. I'm sick of boys and men telling girls and women they are bad at STEM and this is one way to stop that.

Yeah there was a post ages ago about men buying their leisure with womens labour. I was desperately trying to find it so I could post it but couldn’t find it. It just make me feel really sad, I’ve been turning it over in my head for the last few days as well.

I don't think it's society as much as it is the upbringing of the woman. Society has a role to play in our views and opinions but having good, strong men and women in your life is the key to having self-respect and higher expectations in life.

Mentors can play an equally important role.

It can go the other way though. Parents that offer a high level of respect but expect none in return often raise entitled women that expect to be given the world but give little in return. They then wonder why they no longer receive the special treatment a year or two into a relationship and exclaim that they were love-bombed or that 'he showed his true colours'. Very few people will endlessly give 100% effort for no return, men or women.

All in all, I think the best thing we can do for DDs is raise them to expect to be respected when they give respect. I'm pregnant with my second DC and if it is a girl, then this is something I will try to instil by example.

Well, Rome wasn’t built in day.

How do we raise girls to be sure of their value, have high standards and expectations, unwavering instincts and the confidence to listen to them, and to refuse to put up with this toxic bullshit from men?

Speaking as myself. My mother raised me to put my father, brothers, uncles, grandfathers above me. She was raised this way by her mother. Her mother was raised to be the same, and so on. No doubt I have raised my two daughters to behave the same way unfortunately.

Possibly (probably) due to how I was raised i am married to an abusive man and have been for thirty odd years. And so repeats the cycle.

I did not realise I was in an abusive relationship until 18 months ago when I started reading the relationship board on here, quite by chance. It took me 6 months before my reality stopped being discombobulated. I don't think that poor woman ever came back but all the different threads, and all the different posters explaining the subtle ways of abuse and how it makes you feel are invaluable to many women, not just the original poster.

In other words it might not help the original poster to leave but it could help ten women who read that thread. That's powerful.

Yanbu op.
I've been on MN about fifteen years
It's every, fucking, day. A post like this.
And worse, you get some dick who's life is equally miserable saying 'ignore the ltb'ers - it's normal to be abused.'

But, sometimes, you get a woman who the penny drips for, and turns her life around, and then it's all worth while.

Thank you for sharing your story @Pixiedust1234 - I hope you find freedom and autonomy one day.

Its never too late to be a cycle breaker! You can still help your daughters by sharing what you have recently learnt so they don’t make the same mistakes!

All the best 💐

You can't expect a lifetime of conditioning to be reversed in a brief period of time just because some faceless strangers on the internet tell the op that everything she believes to be normal is actually wrong or abusive. Especially if none of the people around her see it that way.

That's quite a scary experience to have people turning your worldview upside down. Why should she trust randomers who have never met her and may not have her best interests at heart?

What can change things for people is a gradual and consistent message over the long term. Being given the time to process the information and the freedom to make their own decisions. That is much more powerful than a short lived burst of enthusiastic/stern encouragement to make big life-changing decisions.

After all, the op on these threads will have to live with the consequences of leaving her home / divorcing her husband / uprooting her children / going through legal processes / losing family or friends if they disown her for leaving / dealing with trauma and grief for the rest of her life.

No matter how well-intentioned, none of the posters on her thread are going to have to deal with any of that or stick around to face those consequences with her.

Sometimes it takes a very long time for it to "click". I come across violent/abusive situations in my line of work quite often. Recently woman finally left/took action after a serious incident where she was hospitalised. They were both in their 80s having been together for around 60 years....she's finally managed to leave after it being her normal for so long. He has shown no remorse bytheway, and thinks it's entirely acceptable conduct in a marriage.

Unfortunately, where I live, there is still a strong belief in certain generations and demographics that physical violence (and with it coercive control)is acceptable within relationships, everyone becomes desensitised, and it becomes normal.

A friend of a friend was physically attacked in the street, albeit back in the 80s, in broad daylight. Passers by only helped when she shouted 'he's not my husband'.

Another time my partner and I tried to assist a woman being assulted by her partner in the street, she shouted at us for trying to intervene. Such is the culture ingrained (that was late 00/early 10s).
This speaks volumes, and sadly, it's still around, despite #metoo and extensive govt/Police campaigns (although look at the Met!!!).

If any of these threads help even one person leave etc, then that's an amazing thing. Some of the support on here is fucking amazing. Solidarity!

YANBU

I think be in a relationship with whoever you want to be with and if its shit, then it’s up to you as an adult to either stay and be miserable or leave and be happy.

But what I can’t stand is when there are children involved and you read the threads and you know that these poor kids are suffering and that the OP is going to put herself and her relationship over the kids.

I remember one years ago that originated with a row over buying the wrong brand of washing powder and costing a few pence more. That bastard had robbed her of everything and she couldn't handle being told that she wasn't being unreasonable about washing powder and that her life was the deepest entrenchment of abuse. She had the thread pulled. But she stuck with me and I hope that in time, she did make a change, and if not, those constant threads of respondants resetting boundaries do help other women to look around themselves afresh. It's something I love about MN, that it is a place where women can empower each other when families and society failed.

How to make it better? I have sons. My children are set the same chores regardless of their sex. They're taught about respect regardless of sex. I hope they mature into responsible men who are healthy, responsible partners. We do have a traditional breadwinner/ SAHP set up, but they can still learn that those household tasks have value. That if they don't do things like empty/ load the dishwasher (because they are members of the household and we are a team) that it affects quality of life.
I'm hoping that approach works anyway!

And this is why I love MN.

I do believe many more women have left abusive relationships because they’ve got the support and advice from MNers, than if they hadn’t posted.

Even if they don’t leave straight away then hopefully another poster gets strength from it or some of the advice will stick and they’ll leave sooner than if they hadn’t posted.

You’re right Op, 100%

Im one that posted on MN and finally did leave, if that helps at all!

Absolutely @Mayhem3
And that's why I'll keep plugging away with my incessant 'please ltb'. Because it's worth it, even if only one woman gets the strength to walk away.

What’s the statistic on leaving DV? Something like 7 attempts to successfully break away? I don’t even know if that includes the women that are killed trying.

It’s easy to sit behind a keyboard and judge, but these women are in life threatening situations and I know I’ve been in short term danger where irrational instincts saved my life. I may wish I’d said this/done that but freezing up kept me alive. What looks like passivity might be survival.

I also see a pattern of posts where the op is starting to think, and seizes on a relatively innocuous example that might or might not be abusive/controlling/gaslighting fuckwittery and gets slaughtered in AIBU by posters who haven’t seen her other thread.

In a DV situation you lose your ability to parse rationally, you become a shell of yourself. But you, more than likely, don’t see yourself as a victim, but as a strong woman loving a troubled man. Often you’ve become isolated - even more so if you’ve tried to leave and gone back. And in RL people don’t tell you you’re in a dangerous situation. They say “there’s two sides to every story” or they dismiss the information that doesn’t fit with the charming man they know.

I think one of the most important things we can do is take part in these circles that we form online around these women. It matters. It saves lives. It helps to wake up people who haven’t seen it yet.

Don’t focus on individual threads that tail off to nothingness. The verses change but we can be part of the ongoing chorus.

I know you're not blaming the OPs btw, I was just reflecting on the complexity of the scenario you're describing and what goes on beyond what you see on those threads.