To be SO frustrated by threads like this…

[Firstworldprobs]

First of all I want to make it crystal clear that I am not frustrated with the OPs of these threads, I am frustrated for them. I don’t blame them one bit.

There seems to be a steady stream of threads that go something like this:

OP: Asks if she is being unreasonable then describes the situation whereby it is indisputable that it’s in fact her DH / DP who is being unreasonable.

PPs: With their spidey senses tingling as they detect potential gaslighting / narcissism / manipulation / abuse / coercive control / fuckwittery, ask OP for more details and also ask what the DH is usually like, and reassure OP unanimously that she is not being unreasonable.

OP: Gives more background info and history that confirms that PPs were correct, there is a pattern of abuse / fuckwittery and/or a whole childhood full of neglect / abuse - meaning that OP is completely brainwashed and browbeaten and believes that this behaviour is normal and she cannot trust her gut and has to put up with it (and so do her kids).

PPs: Rally round OP, explaining (again, unanimously) that OP does not need to endure the abuse / mistreatment / misery for one day longer and would be completely justified in LTB no matter what he says. Suggest if she cannot find the strength to leave for herself, them do it for her children who deserve to live happily and have good role models - advice to break generational cycles.

OP: Is terrified at the idea, due to having zero self esteem, no support, or having been gaslit and manipulated to within an inch of her life into believing she needs DH to survive and won’t find anyone else, can’t afford to leave etc and is convinced she and her kids are trapped.

PPs: give reassurance that OP can LTB. Give OP details of practical, real life support agencies, websites, Women’s Aid, Freedom Programme, books, scripts for what to say to police / DH, advice on legal aid for solicitors, getting ducks in a row, securing important documents, confide in real life friends or family etc etc

OP: Starts backtracking and offering examples of how her DH is not that bad / is a good dad / might be depressed or ND / can be really nice to her sometimes / always apologises etc.

PPs: Continue to reassure OP that her relationship is toxic / abusive and damaging her and her kids and there are ways to leave and support out there.

OP: Never returns to the thread, perhaps deciding that their bar is lower than they realised and they are doomed to this life.

Very occasionally, the OP will return to confirm that they have found the strength to leave, have taken PPs’ advice, called Woman’s Aid or a solicitor, and have ended the relationship. These threads are so satisfying, PPs rejoice that OP has taken their advice and changed her life for the better, one less abused woman! One more single shitty man. Amazing. But they are the minority.

What are we doing when girls are raised to be compliant, nice, submissive, people pleasing ghosts? How do we raise girls to be sure of their value, have high standards and expectations, unwavering instincts and the confidence to listen to them, and to refuse to put up with this toxic bullshit from men? How do we raise boys to have integrity, to see girls as human beings, to be non violent, unselfish, compassionate people?

I am so frustrated on behalf of all the OPs out there who, despite unanimous, practical and compassionate support on MN, cannot appreciate their value or raise that bar for what they will tolerate from a man?

I don’t blame the OPs one bit - I blame their parents, previous partners, and society. It’s utterly heartbreaking.

AIBU?

It's the same the other way around - a good friend of mine put up with DV from his wife for many years.
We didn't have a clue until it all came out after their divorce.

Also agree re your posts about childhood influences

I'll add, for every OP there is at least one lurker who doesn't ever post (in my case because my partner at the time would have found it and all hell would have broken loose) but takes away the advice, the solidarity, the clarity that those threads give and squirrels it away to use themselves one day.

I never posted when I was trying to get out of the situation you describe, but I read every one, and if I could thank personally every single Mumsnetter who contributed I would.

Sometimes even just reading those threads where the responses are unanimous and affirming can be a help.

I think it does also happen but it’s a different set of influences at play, iyswim

@BogRollBOGOF I hope I've done the same with my sons. They're all in their 20s/30s and still have women friends from their childhood, which to me means they must be ok.

I'm fairly certain they think of women as equals and respect them as such. I know they have no truck with misogyny.

It is heartbreaking but it's normal and it's a process.
Just because some people on the internet say LTB doesn't mean it's that easy to do IRL or that OP has the actual support necessary.
Besides, in these cases, OP's self esteem will be on the ground, they can't get one overnight.

I know posters are well meaning but they also need to understand OP doesn't owe them anything.

Yanbu however the backtracking is normal, part of the process of coming to terms with the abuse and it often takes women more than 1 attempt to successfully leave.

Also a victim of DV is most at risk when leaving the relationship so it's something that needs to be carefully planned.

I would also add that whilst there may be a sea of support encouraging someone to leave, once they do often there is nobody and nothing there to catch them afterwards and all the promised follow-on support evaporates. "She's left, job done."

Except it's not for her. It's just the beginning of what for many is a very tough and very distressing path through a life that may be in ruins as a result of both the abuse and the impact of leaving. (Abruptly leaving your home, your possessions, your partner, your family, your memories, your dreams for your future - basically your whole life being blown up - is traumatic in its own right.)

People rarely care about what happens after she leaves or the support and resources she may need to recover from what is often complex trauma and to successfully build a new life. That's a boring long term endeavour that people don't often stick around to support.

Maybe if we did, the picture would change.

I don’t blame the OPs one bit - I blame their parents, previous partners, and society.

This bit isn't fair, though. You blame their parents but don't blame the women who post for continuing the cycle with their own children. Because, let's be honest, there are a lot of children involved in these relationships you are talking about. Watching. Listening. Learning. Repeating. At what point does the previous victim become the perpetrator? It's a nasty, insidious cycle that takes a lot to break. Maybe take "blame" out of it.

Mumsnet estimates that over 6000 (as of 2022) women have been supported to leave abusive relationships, based on analysis of site posts - www.mumsnet.com/articles/violence-against-women

As pp's have said, there's lurkers on posts who might be getting knowledge and realisation which will help them leave.

I think mn is the only place I’ve seen where women are encouraged to leave abusive relationships and even, whisper it, a bit shit relationships that have run their course. I think once the light has been shone then it will help someone, somewhere and I think that’s great. But I hear you op 😊

I am that OP and even though I left 11 months ago I stayed for years too long. The threads we start (admittedly I never posted until after I left) give us a boost but sometimes the boost we need is huge and so whilst we take 2 steps forward after we post we often then take one step back simply because this is a constant grind you down situation that we live and breath daily. I too am frustrated by society but each and every thread that gives support, practical advice, success stories etc is changing the status quo and more women are realising the help is there. I'm 11 months left as I've said but I was still massively being controlled by my EXH and didn't realise until wonderful supportive PP on here pointed it out, now it seems obvious but when you're deep in the situation sometimes it really isn't as this is your normal and I can't describe how scary it is to even think of breaking free and living a different way. I'm a success story but I've still a long journey ahead, I teach my DD and DS every single day to know their inner worth, question everything, reach out for support, respect others and so I'm breaking the cycle for them. Keep answering those threads with love and support, trust me it DOES make a difference x

It is all very backwards imo. Girls are brought up to be equal in school, get good grades, go on to further education and have careers. Until it comes to meeting someone to marry, then the old "rules" seem to apply and lots of women fall into it.

Some women wait (sometimes years) for him to propose and end up in these sexist situations where their father is "giving them away" down the aisle to their new husband (ffs) and some men even go as far as to "ask" the father for permission to marry their daughter "because it's traditional" 🙄 Then quite often the father and new husband make the speeches at the wedding too.

Then when the kids come along, the women is more likely to give up or put her career on hold and take on the lions share. It's laughed at when "dads" do silly irresponsible things with their kids but for mums it's bad parenting. Men get applauded for doing basic things such as changing a nappy, picking their kid up or even doing their daughters hair. Oh isn't he so good! Yet mums just do it anyway with no applause.

This isn't all men and women of course but it's a big portion of them, hence why when it all goes tits up, the woman is the one most likely to be royally screwed and trapped in a situation that's unbearable.

One thing that I used to be guilty of of is always say I’m sorry - even in texts
sorry I can’t do that
sorry I’m not free on blah blah date
sorry I missed your call

Sorry- I’m not coming to your wedding abroad in a country neither of you have any connection & that you want money as a gift for and no kids are allowed

Now I rarely say or write sorry because I’m really not sorry I’m not doing anything I don’t want to do

but always saying I’m sorry was sort of conditioned into me from a young age

But I love HIM.
He is such a good dad.
How will I survive.
This is the first time he has hit me.

Sorry that was a ramble
but what I mean is that young girls are so conditioned to always apologize, say sorry even when it’s not out fault
even just No I’m sorry I’m not doing that I do my upmost to just say No I’m not doing that , No I’m not going there

It can be quite hard to stop saying bloody sorry 😂

Lol your first post was perfectly valid and there was nothing to apologise for!!

Good example though, and I agree with you. I stopped saying sorry a few years back and life is better for it (and I’ve not lost friends or employment!)

This is really interesting @Firstworldprobs and strangely I have been thinking about this same thing recently, but from a slightly different angle.

In my opinion, I think there is evidence that girls/women are starting to have high standards and expectations and refuse to put up with toxic bullshit from men.
It's a slow change, but it is improving.

Unfortunately I have had the misfortune to listen to comments from Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) and Incels.
They are furious, fucking furious, because there is a steady increase in the % of women who are staying single.
In thier little potato heads, they think it's because women hate men and there is a some sort of agenda against white men.

Of course,they are completely wrong.
The reason more women are staying single is because we are not putting up with this bullshit anymore.
We have standards and we refuse to lower them.

Of course there is still a long way to go, but I think with the absolute brilliance of women who have worked tirelessly to improve education, pay gaps, confidence, women are now starting to see they don't need to stay in shitty relationships.
In fact, they don't need to be in a relationship at all, if they don't want to.

I reversed the narrative I grew up with.
My mum nearly 90 is still favouring my brothers and dad rules the roost. Same as her own family dynamic.
In my family, I work & DH is SAHP. I have a boy and girls - ALL treated and loved equally. No favouritism , even though the boy was after rounds of ivf etc.
Never will my kids feel like the girls in my family did. Never will my boy grow up to think girls are lesser.
Set the bar when they are young and shape a better future then what we are experiencing

Try and look at it the opposite way: without MN many of these women wouldn't ever realise what is happening to them. Its an opportunity, and I bet they reflect on it as time goes past and even if they don't leave, use it to better their situation. Don't think it's wasted.

As it happens, over the course of the last few years I've started perhaps three threads that go almost exactly as you describe. Reading responses on other threads like these is what started the niggles that my relationship was not right, but I thought surely my situation was different (and to be fair, it is a lot better than many of the ones I've read). The responses were genuinely transformative to me, and their effects have been culminative. Even though I have not left, I have taken on much of the advice. After the first one, I realised that perhaps partners behaviour was not my fault after all and started using the word 'abuse' to describe my situation. Took some steps to improve my boundaries. After the second one, I confided in some IRL friends and put in more boundaries. Perhaps something will happen one day that will make me post again, and I'll be ready to hear the next stage.

Unless you've been in that situation I think it's difficult to imagine what it's like starting a thread about an isolated incident where you think there's a 50/50 chance that people will agree that you are being over dramatic over this one argument, and really you're just hoping for validation on this one thing - and be met with 50 people telling you that your entire life is a sham and you need to drastically alter it NOW. Not only that, but they all seem to know far more about your own life than anyone possibly could and as if by magic, guess things that you thought were unique to you and telling you that they are abusive patterns of behaviour (e.g. "I bet it started after you had a baby, that's classic abuse").

I can imagine that it is very frustrating (and I know this because I now also join in with what advice I have) but the person on the other end of that thread is possibly having the fabric of their reality shifted by a bunch of words written by people called things lile SaltLampMummy23. It takes some processing!

Part of the problem I suspect is that most men are exploitative of women's labour to some degree. And they don't like being challenged because, let's face it, who likes being told you're in the wrong when the system works for you? It's a spectrum rather than being two buckets labelled "good men" and "rotters". Many men who would claim to be committed to women's rights and equality still don't pull their weight and instead buy their leisure with women's labour. Many have excuses for why it doesn't apply in their situation - they earn more, they work more hours, they can't settle the kids. The refrain is often something like this "Of course both parents should contribute equally to their children and have equal leisure time but I work SOOOO hard during the week and earn SOOOO much more than she does that I deserve a day off and both long lies and evenings out with friends... So although I believe in equality and fairness, there are all these reasons why it doesn't apply to MY relationship."

Naturally they don't like being challenged. So again there is a spectrum of behaviour in response, from acknowledging, promising to step up and then dismissing it from their minds, to avoidance (hiding in the shed/garden/office), to strategic incompetence, to huffiness and grumpiness ("you only need to ask" humpff!), to the silent treatment, to shouting and yelling, to punching the wall, to actual violence. All different degrees of behaviour aimed at silencing women and perpetuating the unfairness. And the behaviour often escalates.

But since so many relationships are marked by one or more of these features, that normalises it. How can people be sure that theirs falls on the "abusive" side of the spectrum, especially when the behaviour has been worsening so gradually over time that the change is difficult to spot?

I got flowers today. It wasn't my birthday or any other special day. We had our first argument last night. He said a lot of cruel things that really hurt me. I know he was sorry and didn't mean the things he said. Because I got flowers today.
I got flowers today. It wasn't our anniversary or any other special day. Last night, he threw me into a wall and started to choke me. It seemed like a nightmare. I couldn't believe it was real. I woke up this morning sore and bruised all over. I know he must be sorry Because he sent me flowers today.
I got flowers today. It wasn't Mother's Day or any other special day. Last night, he beat me up again. And it was much worse than all other times. If I leave him, what will I do? How will I take care of my kids? What about money? I' m afraid of him and scared to leave. But I know he must be sorry Because he sent me flowers today.
I got flowers today. Today was a very special day. It was the day of my funeral. Last night he finally killed me. He beat me to death.
If only I had gathered enough courage and strength to leave him, I would not have gotten flowers today.

I don't think you're being U OP, but finances are an extremely important bit of the puzzle!
Maybe it's confirmation bias but the women who tend to up up in these things have had a lifetime of trauma, resulting in them underachieving to begin with. Not a slight on any jobs, of course a lot of low paid work is useful to society.

But especially in the last few years life itself has gotten objectively harder. Even well paid professionals are fighting over rentals. Childcare, even if you can GET a place is prohibitively expensive,etc. Every day there is a deluge of desperate single mothers on benefits on my community FB page. Begging for rentals, because their LL is selling up and nobody will even give them a look in. What is the point of Housing Benefit if nobody will rent to you?

It's all well and good MN convincing women that they can 'afford to leave'. But can they really?

As @swanling said it's extremely difficult. Of course, many successfully turn their lives around, and in the case of a man beating his wife, constant verbal abuse etc staying has a bad impact on mental health.

but the impact of poverty is even worse. I can certainly see why people stay. I consider it a success if a lightbulb has gone off and woman eventually leaves or at least becomes alert.

How to resolve this? It's all material I'm afraid. A guarantee of supported housing, childcare, heavy guidance and help into a career.

Society can 'guide' as much as it wants but in Maslow's hierarchy of needs food and housing is going to come before everything else.

NC for this, but I’m a person who recognises parts of my life in the OPs that you’re talking about. Discovering MN opened my eyes to behaviours that I never saw before, or at least hadn’t seen clearly in years.

I’d read threads about relationships and I’d think, oh that sounds like normal ups and downs, while other posters would say what you’re describing is emotional abuse.

I was also the person who ran themselves into the ground doing everything, wondering why I couldn’t cope, without realising that I had a DH problem. And the thing I find surprising is that a lot of friends who are at a similar stage in life are now realising the same thing.

I am so grateful to people who take their time to respond and post and bolster the person. It’s helped me when I’ve had wobbles and doubted myself. I’m on my way to figuring out what I want to do longer term. But in the meantime, I’ve had some difficult conversations, put my foot down on a lot of things that I had let slide for years and am starting to see a much better balance. I now fight my corner again, challenge again and call things out. It sounds so small and obvious, but it takes a lot of energy to change.

And to the person who was wondering how it happens, in my case a big part of it is that until recently, I didn’t realise that I had unresolved childhood trauma. Walking on eggshells, people-pleasing, conflict-avoidance. These were all things that stopped me speaking my mind, without me realising.

So to all of the bolshy, perimenopausal MNers - these threads do help, it may just take a while for it to sink in. And if not for the OP, maybe someone else who stumbles upon it. I agree that the biological drive makes a lot of people ignore things that they shouldn’t.

But often you only realise it hindsight!