Page 12 | To be uncomfortable with the film Oppenheimer?

LKM23 · 2023-07-21T17:23:58+00:00

I haven't seen the film, I'm sure it's a brilliant thriller and will be a Blockbuster hit. I don't think I'll watch it though, it makes my feel really uncomfortable. It feels like a man who at the end of the day killed thousands of people and damaged millions is being celebrated and turned into a hero. I lived in Japan for 10 years in my twenties. I visited both Hiroshima and Nagasaki and spent a lot of time with people both directly and indirectly affected by the dropping of the bombs. Those scars are real and still there and will be for a very very long time. It changed Japan and the people who live there forever and at the end of the day I think he was an awful person. AIBU?

Ghosttofu99 · 21/07/2023 22:49

MavisMcMinty · 21/07/2023 22:37

The Japanese killed millions of civilians, mainly Chinese. Millions more than the Nazis killed, and over a longer period.

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Still doesn’t explain why men didn’t want to sort it out with other men. You can say you are happy to murder children of one nation in revenge for the murders of children in another nation as long as you can see that you have no moral high ground, that it’s no noble deed and it’s no way for people to live or treat each other.

MechanicalGoat · 21/07/2023 22:50

Yes, it was horrible, but the Japanese in 1945 were not the nation they are today.

What the actual fuck?

twentyonepoundnote · 21/07/2023 22:51

Gingerboy22 · 21/07/2023 19:23

Surely that is a completely different scenario or are you comparing the Nazis to Oppenheimer?

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why is it a different scenario? both killed millions, both histories are horrifying beyond imagining.

FranticHare · 21/07/2023 22:54

MechanicalGoat · 21/07/2023 22:31

Don’t be ridiculous, it’s isn’t a generational thing. People are dying around the world in war today. I have heard Ukrainians say they don’t hate Russia, they hate Putin and his cronies but not the Russian people who take no part in the war. Of course the shit that happened during wars was barbaric and I cannot imagine what it felt like to go through it, but saying it’s okay they’re racist or xenophobic because they’re of that generation is bollocks.

I’ll repeat to you what I said to the other poster:

Do you think it’s acceptable for anyone who was in or affected by 7/7 or 9/11 to ‘hate all Muslims’? Of course not. But this is how the thinking starts.

I have a friend who fought in Iraq, of course he doesn’t hate Iraqi’s, no matter what some of them did to him and his comrades.

Come on, this thinking is unacceptable and you know it. It excuses xenophobia and racism. It allows racist/xenophobic thinking and lets it continue, encourages it to grow. It’s what racists pray upon. Dont excuse his hatred of a nation of people, many of whom were and are innocent. There are no good reasons

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9/11 was a terrible event - like many I watched it unfold on TV in horror at what happened. But it’s not comparable. At all. And I think you know that.

It was a horrific few hours - but nothing like WW2 which went on for years. There was no torture. There was no starvation. There was no forced labour. There were no ongoing beatings. Emaciated bodies weren’t left lying around. There was no canabalism to simply try and survive. And the numbers don’t come close.

To correct your penultimate sentence - all current Japanese are innocent of the atrocities of WW2. But please don’t minimise what happened at the time. That just makes you look a little naive. Nothing like WW2 has happened since to the (majority) UK population - and I hope it never does again.

Perhaps read about the treatment people went through - put yourself in their shoes. (For the record, I acknowledge no parties in the war were perfect, and understand completely why people would hate the Allies because of what they suffered. It’s not a one way thing - but it’s commonly recognised the Japanese army of the time were particularly viscous).

Sirius3030 · 21/07/2023 22:55

Lacucuracha · 21/07/2023 18:26

YANBU if that’s true. I haven’t seen it but if he is being portrayed as a hero then that’s terrible.

The USA never needed to drop those bombs, the war was effectively over. They just wanted to play with their toys.

It’s not true, he is not made out to be a hero.
You haven’t seen the film.
You clearly know nothing about the history of WW2. The war was not over, and millions more would have died in a bloody invasion of Japan.
It was a horrific time, and FFS it wasn’t about playing with toys.

Bubblesoffun · 21/07/2023 22:57

I feel some on here are failing to appreciate the mindset of Japan at the time. Kill or be killed.
It was not a case of “you can’t win this so let’s talk it all out and every thing will be fine by lunchtime” it’s a very narrow 21st century idealistic view. This can not be applied to the time and the situation.

Papernotplastic · 21/07/2023 22:59

You think war is a place for the moral high ground? Or for ‘men … to sort it out with other men’?

milveycrohn · 21/07/2023 23:00

Oppenheimer is not a film I especially want to watch.
However, I do not necessarily blame the man who invented it.
It is how these things are used that is the problem.
What I mean is, that these inventions can often be used for purposes that were not intended, and further advancement should maybe be welcomed.
BUT, it is not a subject I feel comfortable about watching as entertainment, so I won't.
(I have seen the trailer and tha's enough for me)

pornyshroudofturin · 21/07/2023 23:04

Those who are saying that Japan was on the brink of surrender and there was no need to drop the bomb- if that was the case, why did they not surrender immediately after Hiroshima?

GrinAndVomit · 21/07/2023 23:04

Saschka · 21/07/2023 22:28

You said the rest of WW2 was just “nasty”, but the A bomb was “evil”. I’m pointing out there was plenty of evil on both sides, the A bomb wasn’t uniquely evil in comparison with everything else that was going on at the time.

I’m not suggesting we should drop any more, just pointing out the historical context. I’m a pacifist, I don’t think we should have any wars. I just can’t see a difference between dropping a nuclear bomb and firebombing a city, if the same number of people end up dying very similar deaths as a result.

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No I didn’t.

Moonmelodies · 21/07/2023 23:10

twentyonepoundnote · 21/07/2023 22:51

why is it a different scenario? both killed millions, both histories are horrifying beyond imagining.

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How many millions do you think Oppenheimer killed?

Littlenuggetsofjoy · 21/07/2023 23:11

FranticHare · 21/07/2023 22:54

9/11 was a terrible event - like many I watched it unfold on TV in horror at what happened. But it’s not comparable. At all. And I think you know that.

It was a horrific few hours - but nothing like WW2 which went on for years. There was no torture. There was no starvation. There was no forced labour. There were no ongoing beatings. Emaciated bodies weren’t left lying around. There was no canabalism to simply try and survive. And the numbers don’t come close.

To correct your penultimate sentence - all current Japanese are innocent of the atrocities of WW2. But please don’t minimise what happened at the time. That just makes you look a little naive. Nothing like WW2 has happened since to the (majority) UK population - and I hope it never does again.

Perhaps read about the treatment people went through - put yourself in their shoes. (For the record, I acknowledge no parties in the war were perfect, and understand completely why people would hate the Allies because of what they suffered. It’s not a one way thing - but it’s commonly recognised the Japanese army of the time were particularly viscous).

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Are you suggesting someone attempt to be empathetic whilst reducing 9/11 and everything that went with it to ‘a horrific few hours’?!

You need to take your own advice. What an awful thing to say. Jeez.

MavisMcMinty · 21/07/2023 23:13

Ghosttofu99 · 21/07/2023 22:49

Still doesn’t explain why men didn’t want to sort it out with other men. You can say you are happy to murder children of one nation in revenge for the murders of children in another nation as long as you can see that you have no moral high ground, that it’s no noble deed and it’s no way for people to live or treat each other.

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Yeah, I wasn’t trying to excuse anything, just pointing out it wasn’t “just” allied soldiers killed by Japan, it was also tens of millions of civilians.

MissEDashwood19 · 21/07/2023 23:14

GrinAndVomit · 21/07/2023 22:13

It’s all evil. What’s your point? That Japanese civilians deserved it more?

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So the allies should have just allowed imperial Japan to continue its genocidal rampage through Asia unchecked and/or allowed millions more to die in an attritional war waged on the Japanese mainland?

By this rationale, Germany too would've been offered a negotiated peace to spare it the bombing and occupation by the allies.
Meanwhile, more Jews, Slavs, and assorted slave labourers would have been worked to death or shot/gassed.

I suppose the allies should have also left it to the Germans or Soviets to develop the bomb first to use at their discretion?

Threenow · 21/07/2023 23:17

MechanicalGoat · 21/07/2023 22:31

Don’t be ridiculous, it’s isn’t a generational thing. People are dying around the world in war today. I have heard Ukrainians say they don’t hate Russia, they hate Putin and his cronies but not the Russian people who take no part in the war. Of course the shit that happened during wars was barbaric and I cannot imagine what it felt like to go through it, but saying it’s okay they’re racist or xenophobic because they’re of that generation is bollocks.

I’ll repeat to you what I said to the other poster:

Do you think it’s acceptable for anyone who was in or affected by 7/7 or 9/11 to ‘hate all Muslims’? Of course not. But this is how the thinking starts.

I have a friend who fought in Iraq, of course he doesn’t hate Iraqi’s, no matter what some of them did to him and his comrades.

Come on, this thinking is unacceptable and you know it. It excuses xenophobia and racism. It allows racist/xenophobic thinking and lets it continue, encourages it to grow. It’s what racists pray upon. Dont excuse his hatred of a nation of people, many of whom were and are innocent. There are no good reasons

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I'm sorry, but @FranticHare is correct. It is a generational thing. When I was young I heard many older people claim a hate for the Japanese because of what happened during WW2. This has now died out, but it was quite common at the time. As I was young I didn't really understand it and thought they were being silly - now I am older and a bit wiser I can understand it more.

What life was like during that time cannot be compared to any later wars or terrorist activity, they are completely different. People will always be dying in conflicts somewhere, unfortunately, but those conflicts are nothing at all like World Wars - the clue is in the name. As she said, it is something none of us will have to go through, and unless we were there we really cannot understand just how dreadful it was. I really think young people need to educate themselves a bit about world history, and what life was like for those who lived in times which they are fortunate enough to never have to experience.

You really sound rather clueless tbh.

gherkeen · 21/07/2023 23:19

You know about this because of your experience. Most won't know this. The film will educate them. It doesn't glorify or make him a hero. I understand your concerns completely but I think this is a case of art raising awareness and raising ethical questions. It's not a gaudy blockbuster.

Vintique · 21/07/2023 23:22

This thread has become

Why it’s justifiable to drop nuclear bombs on children

GrinAndVomit · 21/07/2023 23:24

MissEDashwood19 · 21/07/2023 23:14

So the allies should have just allowed imperial Japan to continue its genocidal rampage through Asia unchecked and/or allowed millions more to die in an attritional war waged on the Japanese mainland?

By this rationale, Germany too would've been offered a negotiated peace to spare it the bombing and occupation by the allies.
Meanwhile, more Jews, Slavs, and assorted slave labourers would have been worked to death or shot/gassed.

I suppose the allies should have also left it to the Germans or Soviets to develop the bomb first to use at their discretion?

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There is absolutely no justification for dropping an atomic bomb.
None.
It’s unimaginably inhumane and has no place in human warfare.

At what points in history do you believe the UK would have been justifiably targets of the atomic bomb?

Desdemonadryeyes · 21/07/2023 23:25

You can’t rewrite history. It happened

twentyonepoundnote · 21/07/2023 23:29

Moonmelodies · 21/07/2023 23:10

How many millions do you think Oppenheimer killed?

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not him personally, obviously, but no individual nazi killled millions personally - you know exactly what I mean

SnackSizeRaisin · 21/07/2023 23:29

Ghosttofu99 · 21/07/2023 22:44

Putting the film aside, just because there were bad men and women in Japan who did many evil things still doesn’t justify on any level children having their clothes burned off or dying from burns and radiation sickness. Maybe you could immerse yourself in photographs of the aftermath of those atrocities and see if it has any impact on your perspective.

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You are missing the point (deliberately?)

The bombing is not justified by the evil things done by the Japanese at the time. The bombing was to stop them continuing with these things. It was not a punishment but a means to end the barbaric regime.

Malarandras · 21/07/2023 23:30

Yes you are being unreasonable. It’s a film. You do not need to watch it. I am guessing you started this thread to start a pointless debate about nuclear bombshell and suchlike. How very drole.

Lizzie888 · 21/07/2023 23:34

Lacucuracha · 21/07/2023 22:41

None of that justifies dropping atomic bombs over a nation that the US knew was surrendering.

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That is not true. If the bomb had not been dropped the Japanese, fanatics as they were, led by a fanatical government would have fought to the last man. Most studies of the situation concluded that ending the war early, by dropping the bomb, saved countless more lives including many more civilians as well as allied troops etc. Difficult decisions have to be made during war and the buck stopped with Truman who courageously imo took the decisions he made. Similarly Churchill had to make difficult decisions in the war at times sacrificing many to save even more and disgracefully his achievements and memory are traduced these days by mealy mouthed, pacifist, liberal lefties who have no idea what the great man did for this country or at least they don't want to face up to the fact he was a hero.
Everyone deserves their opinion, even if I don't like it, and it was these men, heroes, who fought to allow people to have and express opinions. So here is my opinion. I am disgusted by the people who don't understand WW2 and spout nonsense out of context and in a different time that has no relation to what was afoot in the war years. If Germany/Japan had won we wouldn't be here having this debate at all, wouldn't have the freedoms of today etc. It's pathetic!!

SnackSizeRaisin · 21/07/2023 23:35

MissEDashwood19 · 21/07/2023 23:14

So the allies should have just allowed imperial Japan to continue its genocidal rampage through Asia unchecked and/or allowed millions more to die in an attritional war waged on the Japanese mainland?

By this rationale, Germany too would've been offered a negotiated peace to spare it the bombing and occupation by the allies.
Meanwhile, more Jews, Slavs, and assorted slave labourers would have been worked to death or shot/gassed.

I suppose the allies should have also left it to the Germans or Soviets to develop the bomb first to use at their discretion?

Show quote history

Erm...Germany was offered a negotiated peace..ever heard of the Munich Agreement or Chamberlain?

The allies did not get involved in order to stop the killing of Jews. It was due to a pact with Poland that the UK got involved. The US didn't come in until much later on in 1941. In fact only due to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour.

GrinAndVomit · 21/07/2023 23:37

Lizzie888 · 21/07/2023 23:34

That is not true. If the bomb had not been dropped the Japanese, fanatics as they were, led by a fanatical government would have fought to the last man. Most studies of the situation concluded that ending the war early, by dropping the bomb, saved countless more lives including many more civilians as well as allied troops etc. Difficult decisions have to be made during war and the buck stopped with Truman who courageously imo took the decisions he made. Similarly Churchill had to make difficult decisions in the war at times sacrificing many to save even more and disgracefully his achievements and memory are traduced these days by mealy mouthed, pacifist, liberal lefties who have no idea what the great man did for this country or at least they don't want to face up to the fact he was a hero.
Everyone deserves their opinion, even if I don't like it, and it was these men, heroes, who fought to allow people to have and express opinions. So here is my opinion. I am disgusted by the people who don't understand WW2 and spout nonsense out of context and in a different time that has no relation to what was afoot in the war years. If Germany/Japan had won we wouldn't be here having this debate at all, wouldn't have the freedoms of today etc. It's pathetic!!

Show quote history

What’s pathetic is to think dropping an atomic bomb on millions of innocent civilians is ok because they were “the bad guys” and not going to give in.

Were we not going to fight until the last man was standing too? Would Japan have been justified in dropping the A bomb on us for similar reasons?