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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder what all the fuss is about ULEZ

1000 replies

Winterday1991 · 21/07/2023 09:52

Hardly anyone is affected, only if you have a very old car. No, you should not be free to pollute the air by driving around in a polluting vehicle and so should have to pay a penalty to do so.

It annoys me as everyone agrees we need to tackle climate change, but no one wants the hit on their life/ change their lifestyles.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
limitedperiodonly · 30/07/2023 18:46

Reugny · 30/07/2023 08:32

I've lived in two parts of Essex that were rural.

Anyway if Essex residents are unhappy with ULEZ they need to get onto Essex County Council and central government for funding to change their cars.

The Mayor of London only has responsibility for Londoners.

I keep being told that the ULEZ expansion will adversely affect people from outside the border who need or want to drive non-compliant vehicles in it. That was Surrey County Council's reason for joining the outer London boroughs in their failed £1 million legal challenge to the ULEZ extension last week.

clarebear111 · 30/07/2023 19:48

Sigmama · 30/07/2023 18:37

Clare bear, who doesn't care? The leading scientists and medics? Those gridlock boundary roads you speak of are full of cars. Traffic jams are caused by traffic. Fewer cars on the road would help those vulnerable people living on those roads.

The local authority doesn’t care, and nor do those in favour of the LTN schemes. They don’t work. How increasing congestion and journey times for every road user (buses can’t levitate) can be considered a green initiative, or a successful policy, is beyond me. There are 1800 extra cars a day on our road now. 1800. And that hasn’t budged since November when these things were introduced. The council admit they don’t know if it will ever reduce.

LTNs disproportionately affect those living on boundary roads. That is simply a fact. In that way, they have inequality baked into them. I happen to be one of those vulnerable people who lives on what has been turned into an urban motorway so that others can benefit. These schemes are not reducing the traffic on my road, which is up by 1800 vehicles a day. So these particular traffic jams are directly caused by forcing cars down certain streets (I.e. the street I live on) by turning huge swathes of the local road network into artificial cul-de-sacs.

7000 people have signed a petition, we've submitted endless deputations, emailed, protested, and nothing. But the council is making millions in fines and some able bodied people are pleased to have no cars on their streets at all. So never mind those who live on boundary roads, mopping it all up, or those unable to get taxis who rely on them, or local businesses whose customers can no longer get to them. It’s outrageous.

Grapefruitsquash · 30/07/2023 20:00

limitedperiodonly · 30/07/2023 18:42

That's what I keep thinking. And many cars are compliant, including that diesel-guzzling 4X4 of@Dibblydoodahdah. Not that fuel consumption is the driver behind ULEZ.

I cannot understand people defending the right to drive polluting vehicles over other people's right to breathe clean air.

I've said many times that the Government should step in with a more generous scrappage system because clean air is a public health issue and that is absolutely the responsibility of central Government with local councils being free to introduce local initiatives.

But Rishi Sunak has just announced a ban for assistance with Low Traffic Neighbourhoods like as if there is an international socialist conspiracy to make it easier to walk to the shops.

He is desperate for votes and people might be stupid enough to go for it so it's worth the gamble.

My mum is 85 and disabled. She absolutely refuses to use a wheelchair and struggles along with a frame. The council made her road inaccessible to traffic as part of an LTN. We can't drive there to collect her to come to us or to my brother or her grandchildren for a meal. We can't even register one car for access as it's only for resident's cars and they said they'd check the regustered keeper. She's effectively trapped in her flat.

limitedperiodonly · 30/07/2023 20:18

Grapefruitsquash · 30/07/2023 20:00

My mum is 85 and disabled. She absolutely refuses to use a wheelchair and struggles along with a frame. The council made her road inaccessible to traffic as part of an LTN. We can't drive there to collect her to come to us or to my brother or her grandchildren for a meal. We can't even register one car for access as it's only for resident's cars and they said they'd check the regustered keeper. She's effectively trapped in her flat.

That's your mum's experience of a LTN. Mine is entirely positive. Neither of us is wrong and both of us are entitled to our views.

clarebear111 · 30/07/2023 20:33

Grapefruitsquash · 30/07/2023 20:00

My mum is 85 and disabled. She absolutely refuses to use a wheelchair and struggles along with a frame. The council made her road inaccessible to traffic as part of an LTN. We can't drive there to collect her to come to us or to my brother or her grandchildren for a meal. We can't even register one car for access as it's only for resident's cars and they said they'd check the regustered keeper. She's effectively trapped in her flat.

I’m so sorry to hear about your mum. It sounds difficult and isolating for her, and upsetting for you.

I hope that good sense prevails soon with the LTNs. I think most reasonable people can see they are unsustainable and have inequality baked into them. I am surprised at the seeming inability to acknowledge these fundamental issues by those who support them, and the lack of empathy for those who quality of life has been so disproportionately affected.

clarebear111 · 30/07/2023 20:42

limitedperiodonly · 30/07/2023 18:42

That's what I keep thinking. And many cars are compliant, including that diesel-guzzling 4X4 of@Dibblydoodahdah. Not that fuel consumption is the driver behind ULEZ.

I cannot understand people defending the right to drive polluting vehicles over other people's right to breathe clean air.

I've said many times that the Government should step in with a more generous scrappage system because clean air is a public health issue and that is absolutely the responsibility of central Government with local councils being free to introduce local initiatives.

But Rishi Sunak has just announced a ban for assistance with Low Traffic Neighbourhoods like as if there is an international socialist conspiracy to make it easier to walk to the shops.

He is desperate for votes and people might be stupid enough to go for it so it's worth the gamble.

But not everyone can walk to the shops, or carry heavy shopping back with them. Do they not matter?

if the objective is to make moving around the local area easier, why would you implement a scheme that actually generates congestion, that in turn affects every road user?

The boundary road we live on has seen an increase of 1800 vehicles per day since the LTNs were brought in. What about the quality of air we are breathing in? Or perhaps we don’t matter either. FWIW, it’s a narrow, exclusively residential road that simply cannot cope with the volume of cars that are now being funnelled down it. Whatever benefits may be accruing to those who live within LTNs, they are coming at the direct expense of people and families on roads like mine. The inequality is baked in and it is grotesque.

limitedperiodonly · 30/07/2023 20:58

But not everyone can walk to the shops, or carry heavy shopping back with them. Do they not matter?
@clarebear111 I know that, but similarly do people who want to breathe cleaner air in ULEZ, or people who would like safer roads in LTNs or 20mph limits, not matter?

I sympathise with @Grapefruitsquash and her mum. It is very hard for someone to accept that they need assistance, possibly a wheelchair. I hope the local authority will authorise the lady's family to drive one registered vehicle into the area. I can see why they might be reluctant to do that as if they give permission for genuine cases, other people will abuse it. But it doesn't seem insurmountable.

But it is unreasonable for the LTN to be scrapped for everyone in the neighbourhood because Grapefruit's mum doesn't want to use a wheelchair. That's not fair.

I can also see the problem where you live. What I find grotesque is that so many people insist on driving cars when they don't need to. Until they are forced to stop it, they won't.

ScribblingPixie · 30/07/2023 21:02

I'm really sorry @grapefruitsquash, that's terrible. The lack of sense and respect for people's lives in these schemes takes my breath away.

clarebear111 · 30/07/2023 21:14

limitedperiodonly · 30/07/2023 20:58

But not everyone can walk to the shops, or carry heavy shopping back with them. Do they not matter?
@clarebear111 I know that, but similarly do people who want to breathe cleaner air in ULEZ, or people who would like safer roads in LTNs or 20mph limits, not matter?

I sympathise with @Grapefruitsquash and her mum. It is very hard for someone to accept that they need assistance, possibly a wheelchair. I hope the local authority will authorise the lady's family to drive one registered vehicle into the area. I can see why they might be reluctant to do that as if they give permission for genuine cases, other people will abuse it. But it doesn't seem insurmountable.

But it is unreasonable for the LTN to be scrapped for everyone in the neighbourhood because Grapefruit's mum doesn't want to use a wheelchair. That's not fair.

I can also see the problem where you live. What I find grotesque is that so many people insist on driving cars when they don't need to. Until they are forced to stop it, they won't.

There’s a balance to be struck, and the LTNs are not meeting it. I find them a clumsy, one size fits all approach that doesn’t take into account the needs of vulnerable people. They are certainly not stopping people from driving, so on that metric alone they fail.

This is about what is proportionate and reasonable. Isolating an elderly, disabled mother and grandmother from her family, and forcing people who live on boundary roads to mop up air pollution on the behalf of others, is not proportionate or fair. Any benefits of LTNs are concentrated in certain places and certain households, namely those households which are able bodied and within the LTNs. It is not right that those benefits come at the direct expense of others. That’s why I think to impose these catastrophic consequences on some so that others may reap benefits cannot be said to be fair, meaning these schemes are fundamentally flawed.

If you are concerned about the number of car journeys, there are other ways to address that. Turning publicly maintainable roads which have always been a meaningful part of the road network into artificial cul de sacs is not the only way of dealing with the issue. Tbh, it doesn’t even look to be a particularly effective way of doing it, judging by the statistics on my road. 1800 extra vehicles a day since the LTNs were brought in and no sign at all of that abating.

clarebear111 · 30/07/2023 21:20

ScribblingPixie · 30/07/2023 21:02

I'm really sorry @grapefruitsquash, that's terrible. The lack of sense and respect for people's lives in these schemes takes my breath away.

Completely agree. I cannot understand it.

limitedperiodonly · 30/07/2023 21:26

Yes there is a balance to be struck and as I said, that balance should be with the council allowing one registered vehicle into the area and for the lady to accept that she needs to use a wheelchair sometimes. It is not balanced for the entire LTN to be scrapped for everyone for the benefit of one person.

What other ways do you suggest could be used to reduce car journeys? I'm talking specifically about neighbourhoods which have shops, doctors, dentists and schools in walking distance and good public transport. Not places that are rural with poor public transport. I accept that is a different matter.

I live in such a place and people moan like buggery around here because they can't drive wherever they want or are asked to literally go round the houses so that the rest of us can walk to the shops.

They've been asked to be considerate and they won't, so they have been made to.

Honestly, I've never come across so many people who insist they only have a car so they can take elderly ladies to church or hospital appointments. I'm afraid I don't believe them.

Noyesnoyesbutno · 30/07/2023 21:32

So with LTN can you not get taxi’s , delivery of goods . Supermarket home delivery? If you live on certain streets?
What about care workers? School pick up for SEN?

clarebear111 · 30/07/2023 21:47

limitedperiodonly · 30/07/2023 21:26

Yes there is a balance to be struck and as I said, that balance should be with the council allowing one registered vehicle into the area and for the lady to accept that she needs to use a wheelchair sometimes. It is not balanced for the entire LTN to be scrapped for everyone for the benefit of one person.

What other ways do you suggest could be used to reduce car journeys? I'm talking specifically about neighbourhoods which have shops, doctors, dentists and schools in walking distance and good public transport. Not places that are rural with poor public transport. I accept that is a different matter.

I live in such a place and people moan like buggery around here because they can't drive wherever they want or are asked to literally go round the houses so that the rest of us can walk to the shops.

They've been asked to be considerate and they won't, so they have been made to.

Honestly, I've never come across so many people who insist they only have a car so they can take elderly ladies to church or hospital appointments. I'm afraid I don't believe them.

But the PP already said that the exemption you propose didn’t work in her circumstances. So I’m afraid that’s a non-starter. The PP’s mother is sadly only one of many people who have been impacted, and the exemptions don’t allow for those people who rely on taxis. So the one size fits all approach of reaching for exemptions doesn’t look to me to be adequate.

What about people on boundary roads? What exemptions can be offered to us? We can’t mitigate the disastrous consequences because they are literally on our doorstep.

I’m not in policy, but there are loads of things that could be done. Improving public transport, even making it free, offering cycle schemes for those able to cycle etc. It is indefensible to close off chunks of the road network when the consequences are so dire and the benefits so narrowly concentrated.

It is not a crime to use a car. Perhaps you should focus your ire on those who take private jets and helicopters unnecessarily, instead of people simply trying to get by during a cost of living crisis.

ScribblingPixie · 30/07/2023 22:06

I used to live in a city with free public transport. It was a no-brainer that you'd use it if you could. Of course, there were also times when you needed a car. Some people need to use one often - and it's just plain stupid to say that isn't so. I read someone say, when talking about politics, that when people prioritise ideology they don't tell the truth - that definitely applies in this area.

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 09:07

clarebear111 · 30/07/2023 21:47

But the PP already said that the exemption you propose didn’t work in her circumstances. So I’m afraid that’s a non-starter. The PP’s mother is sadly only one of many people who have been impacted, and the exemptions don’t allow for those people who rely on taxis. So the one size fits all approach of reaching for exemptions doesn’t look to me to be adequate.

What about people on boundary roads? What exemptions can be offered to us? We can’t mitigate the disastrous consequences because they are literally on our doorstep.

I’m not in policy, but there are loads of things that could be done. Improving public transport, even making it free, offering cycle schemes for those able to cycle etc. It is indefensible to close off chunks of the road network when the consequences are so dire and the benefits so narrowly concentrated.

It is not a crime to use a car. Perhaps you should focus your ire on those who take private jets and helicopters unnecessarily, instead of people simply trying to get by during a cost of living crisis.

This issue of my ire keeps coming up on this thread by people who disagree with ULEZ.

I don't have any ire towards drivers, or people who use private jets or helicopters or even rich young men in Knightsbridge who drive Lamborghinis - which was something a PP thought I should get angry about. It's Whataboutery and pointless - how many people drive Lamborghinis in the scheme of things? They're probably compliant anyway.

I want all people to cut down on unnecessary motorised journeys for the benefit of public health and making neighbourhoods more agreeable. That's whether the journeys are in a ULEZ-compliant vehicle or not. So that's my reason for supporting LTNs and other traffic calming measures such as 20mph speed limits in residential streets and around schools, hospitals and shopping areas where lots of people will be on foot.

Free public transport is an interesting idea. There is already a TFL Freedom Pass for over-60s in London boroughs. I think there might be a similar scheme for under-12s, but I don't have an under-12 so I don't know for sure. I'm actually still looking forward to my Freedom Pass.

Those are excellent ideas from the perspective of easing financial burdens on groups who are, on average, likely to be on lower incomes or have more pressures on their income such as families with dependent children. I know we can all think of pensioners who live in million pound+ houses and shop at Waitrose, but I'm talking about on the whole.

But giving free public transport to everyone would cost a lot of money. I'm not against it in principle but as you suggested it, so it's only fair to ask how you would pay for it?

So how would you? People get up in the air about the hole in TfL's finances already and accuse Sadiq Khan, rightly or wrongly, of using the ULEZ charges to plug the gap. I sense another £1 million legal challenge from the outer London boroughs and interested parties outside London over free public transport.

If we somehow could afford it out of national and local taxation, and people voted for it rather than political parties demonising it as a tax on the lives of ordinary hard working people, would you make people use it or penalise them for not using this fantastic resource that the rest of us are subsidising and selfishly causing unnecessary congestion and pollution?

I don't think it's a goer, but like I said, you suggested it...

There are already cycle schemes - lanes and hire bikes - available to those who want to use them, but haven't you noticed that they invoke fury from car drivers and people writing in newspapers about pore old car drivers. We're not even talking about "closing off chunks of the road network when the consequences are so dire and the benefits so narrowly concentrated" as you said. We're only asking all road users to share the space safely but lots of car drivers, though not all, don't want to do that.

I don't cycle because I would be a danger to myself and others. I walk, take public transport, including the occasional taxi and if I need a car I hire one. Of course it's not a crime to drive a car. I've never said so. People should drive one whenever they need to or sometimes just for the joy of setting off in a nice car to do whatever they want.

In the last 20 years I've hired a car in this country about three times a year to visit my mother-in-law. It takes about three hours in a car. We're being selfish there because it's do-able by public transport - fast train down there then a slow bus. it takes about five hours and we have done it, but a car is much easier.

She always took public transport when she visited us. Though she was a competent driver, she couldn't be bothered in London. Then her eyesight became too dangerous to drive - glaucoma - and she couldn't drive, not even pottering about locally. My mother-in-law, who died this year aged 96, was a sensible woman and didn't want to harm herself or others so she made that choice. She walked and used public transport in her properly rural area - it was a small town so had many amenities but travelling through the county was not particularly easy, so I do know about that.

She also had a long white stick with a roller ball on the end; God help anyone who got in the way of that white stick - she was a very assertive person of restricted sight as all people with disabilities should be against people who aren't looking where they are going or don't care who they inconvenience even though they would swear blind they do. She'd have used a wheelchair if necessary, as would my own mum who died aged 90. They were proud women but practical.

I wouldn't force anyone to walk or take the bus instead of their car if they didn't want to do that. But I do ask them to pay any additional charges and comply with road restrictions. Same as I don't expect to meet cyclists over the age of about 10 on the pavement.

I would prefer to use carrots, but sometimes you need sticks too.

I rarely get filled with ire, I do get frustrated though, especially with people who say: "It doesn't work for me; it doesn't work in all situations; look at that rich bastard over there; what about the little old lady?" Often they are using others as human shields for their own selfish behaviour.

One size never fits all but saying that means we'll never try anything new. We should do the things that benefit the most people while making reasonable adjustments after a bedding-in period and also expecting people to make reasonable compromises.

clarebear111 · 31/07/2023 09:32

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 09:07

This issue of my ire keeps coming up on this thread by people who disagree with ULEZ.

I don't have any ire towards drivers, or people who use private jets or helicopters or even rich young men in Knightsbridge who drive Lamborghinis - which was something a PP thought I should get angry about. It's Whataboutery and pointless - how many people drive Lamborghinis in the scheme of things? They're probably compliant anyway.

I want all people to cut down on unnecessary motorised journeys for the benefit of public health and making neighbourhoods more agreeable. That's whether the journeys are in a ULEZ-compliant vehicle or not. So that's my reason for supporting LTNs and other traffic calming measures such as 20mph speed limits in residential streets and around schools, hospitals and shopping areas where lots of people will be on foot.

Free public transport is an interesting idea. There is already a TFL Freedom Pass for over-60s in London boroughs. I think there might be a similar scheme for under-12s, but I don't have an under-12 so I don't know for sure. I'm actually still looking forward to my Freedom Pass.

Those are excellent ideas from the perspective of easing financial burdens on groups who are, on average, likely to be on lower incomes or have more pressures on their income such as families with dependent children. I know we can all think of pensioners who live in million pound+ houses and shop at Waitrose, but I'm talking about on the whole.

But giving free public transport to everyone would cost a lot of money. I'm not against it in principle but as you suggested it, so it's only fair to ask how you would pay for it?

So how would you? People get up in the air about the hole in TfL's finances already and accuse Sadiq Khan, rightly or wrongly, of using the ULEZ charges to plug the gap. I sense another £1 million legal challenge from the outer London boroughs and interested parties outside London over free public transport.

If we somehow could afford it out of national and local taxation, and people voted for it rather than political parties demonising it as a tax on the lives of ordinary hard working people, would you make people use it or penalise them for not using this fantastic resource that the rest of us are subsidising and selfishly causing unnecessary congestion and pollution?

I don't think it's a goer, but like I said, you suggested it...

There are already cycle schemes - lanes and hire bikes - available to those who want to use them, but haven't you noticed that they invoke fury from car drivers and people writing in newspapers about pore old car drivers. We're not even talking about "closing off chunks of the road network when the consequences are so dire and the benefits so narrowly concentrated" as you said. We're only asking all road users to share the space safely but lots of car drivers, though not all, don't want to do that.

I don't cycle because I would be a danger to myself and others. I walk, take public transport, including the occasional taxi and if I need a car I hire one. Of course it's not a crime to drive a car. I've never said so. People should drive one whenever they need to or sometimes just for the joy of setting off in a nice car to do whatever they want.

In the last 20 years I've hired a car in this country about three times a year to visit my mother-in-law. It takes about three hours in a car. We're being selfish there because it's do-able by public transport - fast train down there then a slow bus. it takes about five hours and we have done it, but a car is much easier.

She always took public transport when she visited us. Though she was a competent driver, she couldn't be bothered in London. Then her eyesight became too dangerous to drive - glaucoma - and she couldn't drive, not even pottering about locally. My mother-in-law, who died this year aged 96, was a sensible woman and didn't want to harm herself or others so she made that choice. She walked and used public transport in her properly rural area - it was a small town so had many amenities but travelling through the county was not particularly easy, so I do know about that.

She also had a long white stick with a roller ball on the end; God help anyone who got in the way of that white stick - she was a very assertive person of restricted sight as all people with disabilities should be against people who aren't looking where they are going or don't care who they inconvenience even though they would swear blind they do. She'd have used a wheelchair if necessary, as would my own mum who died aged 90. They were proud women but practical.

I wouldn't force anyone to walk or take the bus instead of their car if they didn't want to do that. But I do ask them to pay any additional charges and comply with road restrictions. Same as I don't expect to meet cyclists over the age of about 10 on the pavement.

I would prefer to use carrots, but sometimes you need sticks too.

I rarely get filled with ire, I do get frustrated though, especially with people who say: "It doesn't work for me; it doesn't work in all situations; look at that rich bastard over there; what about the little old lady?" Often they are using others as human shields for their own selfish behaviour.

One size never fits all but saying that means we'll never try anything new. We should do the things that benefit the most people while making reasonable adjustments after a bedding-in period and also expecting people to make reasonable compromises.

What is an unnecessary journey please?

The problem is that the LTNs are not encouraging people to cut down on journeys. I repeat, there are 1800 extra vehicles a day on my road, as there have been since these schemes were brought in in November. They are not working on that basis alone.

All these schemes are doing is dividing communities into those worthy of clean air and those unworthy of it. I happen to think we are all deserving of clean air, and that is it unsustainable for clean air for some to come at the direct expense of others.

We have indeed tried something new here, on a huge scale, and it has failed. Time to go back to the drawing board and look at the alternatives.

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 31/07/2023 09:37

as if there is an international socialist conspiracy to make it easier to walk to the shops.
Sadly a lot of people are propagating the idea that this is a giant socialist conspiracy to take all our possessions and travel rights away.

Sluj · 31/07/2023 09:44

https://www-hertfordshiremercury-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/news/hertfordshire-news/online-tool-shows-just-how-7015851.amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16907923355549&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fhertfordshire-news%2Fonline-tool-shows-just-how-7015851

Hope this link works, it shows air pollution in Hertfordshire which is very high. Lots of that is caused by people resident in London using the M1, A1, A10, A41 and A414 to go about their business and leisure. What would happen if all the home counties also introduced a ULEZ scheme to protect their residents? What would Londoners think if they were effectively barricaded inside the M25 because their neighbours introduced charges which affected their particular vehicle? How would it work if each county had a different charge?

There has to be a different way of doing this Or more time to achieve it. In the meantime more cars will be forced on to county roads and their residents will suffer.

Online tool shows just how bad air pollution is in Herts postcode by postcode

It is the most detailed map of dirty air to date

https://www-hertfordshiremercury-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/news/hertfordshire-news/online-tool-shows-just-how-7015851.amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16907923355549&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fhertfordshire-news%2Fonline-tool-shows-just-how-7015851

clarebear111 · 31/07/2023 09:44

ScribblingPixie · 30/07/2023 22:06

I used to live in a city with free public transport. It was a no-brainer that you'd use it if you could. Of course, there were also times when you needed a car. Some people need to use one often - and it's just plain stupid to say that isn't so. I read someone say, when talking about politics, that when people prioritise ideology they don't tell the truth - that definitely applies in this area.

Completely agree.

Reugny · 31/07/2023 09:49

@Sluj if Herefordshire and other Home Counties want to introduce a ULEZ for their roads then as long as they can get adequate funding from central government for scrappage schemes and other measures I'm up for it.

Remember most Londoners who have cars would be compliant.

DonnaBanana · 31/07/2023 09:54

She's effectively trapped in her flat.

It sounds like she isn’t entirely unhappy about that though if she refuses to use a wheelchair at all despite having almost no mobility.

Sluj · 31/07/2023 09:56

They would only have compliant cars if each home counties individual rules said so, with no consultation with Londoners. It could cost a fortune to go on a journey through each zone.

Sluj · 31/07/2023 09:58

I don't understand the argument that most cars will be compliant anyway but somehow the few that aren't are causing the pollution. Does anyone have figures on non compliance and the % of the pollution they are causing please?

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 31/07/2023 10:12

Sluj · 31/07/2023 09:58

I don't understand the argument that most cars will be compliant anyway but somehow the few that aren't are causing the pollution. Does anyone have figures on non compliance and the % of the pollution they are causing please?

Excellent point - proponents keep saying only a tiny proportion are not compliant - is this small number really causing a huge issue? And if so why not ban such vehicles entirely?

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 10:17

clarebear111 · 31/07/2023 09:32

What is an unnecessary journey please?

The problem is that the LTNs are not encouraging people to cut down on journeys. I repeat, there are 1800 extra vehicles a day on my road, as there have been since these schemes were brought in in November. They are not working on that basis alone.

All these schemes are doing is dividing communities into those worthy of clean air and those unworthy of it. I happen to think we are all deserving of clean air, and that is it unsustainable for clean air for some to come at the direct expense of others.

We have indeed tried something new here, on a huge scale, and it has failed. Time to go back to the drawing board and look at the alternatives.

Please don't selectively quote. I said "unnecessary motorised journeys" not "unnecessary journeys". I chose that wording carefully as I am sure you did when you chose to leave the "motorised" bit out.

An unnecessary motorised journey is one where you can travel on foot or cycle or use the motor in public transport like a bus or a train where your impact on others is mitigated by being part of a group rather than a single driver.

Of course you can use a car and do it all by yourself if you need or choose to. I do it sometimes. I've said so. But if you are required to pay extra for the convenience of doing this, then you have to. I accept that because I am an adult and I live in a community. That's not hard to work out.

My LTN works for me. But if yours isn't working for you, then you should contact the local council with your concerns. It might be that a majority of residents agree with you and in that case it should be changed or scrapped altogether.

But just because you and some likeminded people don't like it, is no reason for presuming you are in the majority. You might be, or you might not which may be the reason why your local council has declined your requests.

At the next local government elections you can make it clear that you will vote against any ward councillor or ruling party who is in favour of the LTN in your area. Then do it and see what happens. If enough people agree with you it will go. If not, it won't.

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