Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder what all the fuss is about ULEZ

1000 replies

Winterday1991 · 21/07/2023 09:52

Hardly anyone is affected, only if you have a very old car. No, you should not be free to pollute the air by driving around in a polluting vehicle and so should have to pay a penalty to do so.

It annoys me as everyone agrees we need to tackle climate change, but no one wants the hit on their life/ change their lifestyles.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 10:32

ScribblingPixie · 30/07/2023 22:06

I used to live in a city with free public transport. It was a no-brainer that you'd use it if you could. Of course, there were also times when you needed a car. Some people need to use one often - and it's just plain stupid to say that isn't so. I read someone say, when talking about politics, that when people prioritise ideology they don't tell the truth - that definitely applies in this area.

Can you point to someone who says there are never times when you need to or prefer to use a car?

That would be stupid because of course there are. I don't need to use a car as much as some people but occasionally I do. And when I do, I accept there might be restrictions or additional charges on top of fuel and insurance.

The use of free public transport isn't as much of a no-brainer as you think. Some people choose not to use it because it's not convenient for their journey; they don't like sitting next to other people or like a friend of mine, they think free bus passes for the over 60s, as in London are the sign of old poor people and are too embarrassed to apply for one.

That is entirely up to them. All I ask is that they pay for the choices they make. '

taxguru · 31/07/2023 10:40

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 31/07/2023 10:12

Excellent point - proponents keep saying only a tiny proportion are not compliant - is this small number really causing a huge issue? And if so why not ban such vehicles entirely?

It's only the start. Over time, the threshold for "non compliance" will change and cars, currently compliant, will become non compliant as the thresholds increase. Anyone who thinks we'll have the same thresholds in 5 years time as we have today is a fool.

Same with electric cars - currently no RFL, exemptions from ULEZ, tax efficient for businesses, etc., but all that WILL change as revenues from petrol/diesel cars fall and the massive hole in tax revenue needs filling!

Reugny · 31/07/2023 10:44

taxguru · 31/07/2023 10:40

It's only the start. Over time, the threshold for "non compliance" will change and cars, currently compliant, will become non compliant as the thresholds increase. Anyone who thinks we'll have the same thresholds in 5 years time as we have today is a fool.

Same with electric cars - currently no RFL, exemptions from ULEZ, tax efficient for businesses, etc., but all that WILL change as revenues from petrol/diesel cars fall and the massive hole in tax revenue needs filling!

Road pricing is coming in. So people will be paying per mile.

And as new petrol and diesel vehicles are going to stop being sold in 2030 then that's when they start to stop being compliant.

SquirmOfEels · 31/07/2023 10:47

They won't really need to change the thresholds - the issue is self-extinguishing because of the upcoming ban (across most of Europe) of sales of new petrol/diesel cars (UK has a middling deadline of 2030)

So other than classic cars; given that the average lifespan of a car in Britain is 8-9 years, there will a shrinking number of ICE cars

And then it'll be rated, like road tax, on size

tabulahrasa · 31/07/2023 10:54

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 10:32

Can you point to someone who says there are never times when you need to or prefer to use a car?

That would be stupid because of course there are. I don't need to use a car as much as some people but occasionally I do. And when I do, I accept there might be restrictions or additional charges on top of fuel and insurance.

The use of free public transport isn't as much of a no-brainer as you think. Some people choose not to use it because it's not convenient for their journey; they don't like sitting next to other people or like a friend of mine, they think free bus passes for the over 60s, as in London are the sign of old poor people and are too embarrassed to apply for one.

That is entirely up to them. All I ask is that they pay for the choices they make. '

You accept it because you can afford it.

Do you really think people in badly paying jobs reliant on having their own transport are making choices?

They could get better jobs and then afford better cars, but they just decided not to? 😐

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 11:04

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 31/07/2023 09:37

as if there is an international socialist conspiracy to make it easier to walk to the shops.
Sadly a lot of people are propagating the idea that this is a giant socialist conspiracy to take all our possessions and travel rights away.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

I live in a one of those 15-minute cities conspiracy theorists and Deep State anti-vaxxers are always warning about.

For years I didn't notice it. You could say I sleep-walked into the idea that being able to walk to the shops, doctors, dentists, schools (if I had children), vet (if my cat hadn't been inevitably run over); parks and a river; a private and public gym and swimming pool and restaurants was normal. Recently they built a cinema in walking distance and I can go to the hospital on the bus or tube in about 30 minutes. In an emergency I could dial 999 but a taxi or crawling there would probably be quicker.

It's like when I realised that the curry I'd been making for 10 years was actually vegan and we decided to carry on eating it because even though we were possibly being bent to the will of power-crazed vegans, we liked it.

I realise not everyone wants to live where I live but when I grew up in Essex (admittedly not the very rural part where some people dwell) there were shops, schools (both primary and secondary); doctors; dentists; a hairdresser's, a Wimpy - you get the picture.

I don't understand why people think this is a negative thing and don't want at least some of them.

clarebear111 · 31/07/2023 11:15

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 10:17

Please don't selectively quote. I said "unnecessary motorised journeys" not "unnecessary journeys". I chose that wording carefully as I am sure you did when you chose to leave the "motorised" bit out.

An unnecessary motorised journey is one where you can travel on foot or cycle or use the motor in public transport like a bus or a train where your impact on others is mitigated by being part of a group rather than a single driver.

Of course you can use a car and do it all by yourself if you need or choose to. I do it sometimes. I've said so. But if you are required to pay extra for the convenience of doing this, then you have to. I accept that because I am an adult and I live in a community. That's not hard to work out.

My LTN works for me. But if yours isn't working for you, then you should contact the local council with your concerns. It might be that a majority of residents agree with you and in that case it should be changed or scrapped altogether.

But just because you and some likeminded people don't like it, is no reason for presuming you are in the majority. You might be, or you might not which may be the reason why your local council has declined your requests.

At the next local government elections you can make it clear that you will vote against any ward councillor or ruling party who is in favour of the LTN in your area. Then do it and see what happens. If enough people agree with you it will go. If not, it won't.

I still don't understand what you think an unnecessary motorised journey is. Is a mum taking her kids to school an unnecessary motorised journey?

If you want to target the unnecessary motorised journeys, you first need to define them adequately and then find a way of targeting them. This one size fits all approach helps no one.

What do you like about your LTN? Is it that you now effectively live on a cul-de-sac? Do you not feel bad that the only way you get to enjoy traffic free streets is because others are mopping up those journeys?

There's no reason to presume you are a majority either. In fact, I think this thread shows what a divisive issue this is.

We have tried to make our feelings plain locally. 7000 signatures on a petition against vs 300 on a petition in favour. The local authority are not interested because of the revenue they raise in fines. Please do not think this is about anything other than the money.

ScribblingPixie · 31/07/2023 11:20

Can you point to someone who says there are never times when you need to or prefer to use a car?

Why would I do that when it's not something I asserted?

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 11:26

tabulahrasa · 31/07/2023 10:54

You accept it because you can afford it.

Do you really think people in badly paying jobs reliant on having their own transport are making choices?

They could get better jobs and then afford better cars, but they just decided not to? 😐

I've said I don't have a car and walk or travel by bus or tube nearly all the time.

Where do you get an idea of what I can and cannot afford, what my employment and health situation is and what I can choose to do?

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 11:36

ScribblingPixie · 31/07/2023 11:20

Can you point to someone who says there are never times when you need to or prefer to use a car?

Why would I do that when it's not something I asserted?

Oh sorry, did I misunderstand it when you said this?

I used to live in a city with free public transport. It was a no-brainer that you'd use it if you could. Of course, there were also times when you needed a car. Some people need to use one often - and it's just plain stupid to say that isn't so. I read someone say, when talking about politics, that when people prioritise ideology they don't tell the truth - that definitely applies in this area.

No one has said otherwise - there are times when you need or want to use a car.

You also like to selectively quote. As you must know, there are reasons why people don't want to use public transport no matter how cheap or even free.

They are all valid but if you don't want to use it, then you must be prepared to pay for an alternative.

ScribblingPixie · 31/07/2023 11:39

Some people need to use one [a car] often - and it's just plain stupid to say that isn't so.

It's stupid to say that there are never times when you need to or prefer to use a car.

Do these two sentences mean the same thing to you?

tabulahrasa · 31/07/2023 11:42

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 11:26

I've said I don't have a car and walk or travel by bus or tube nearly all the time.

Where do you get an idea of what I can and cannot afford, what my employment and health situation is and what I can choose to do?

You’re framing it as being about choices, so my assumption is that you have no experience of choices in fact only being a choice if you’re coming at it from a more privileged position.

Home carers don’t choose to use their cars and be technically paid less then minimum wage because they feel like it, parcel couriers aren’t doing that because they’ve got transferable skills but prefer to be paid a pittance while also having to have all the downsides of being self employed with none of the perks.

If they had a choice they’d choose jobs that paid properly and didn’t use their own vehicles.

lieselotte · 31/07/2023 12:16

clarebear111 · 30/07/2023 21:20

Completely agree. I cannot understand it.

Council workers are not generally known for common sense. Or their understanding of the Equality Act. Obviously being able to get in to collect and drop off a disabled person is a reasonable adjustment. I would do it anyway and then contest the fines in court.

SquirmOfEels · 31/07/2023 12:26

lieselotte · 31/07/2023 12:16

Council workers are not generally known for common sense. Or their understanding of the Equality Act. Obviously being able to get in to collect and drop off a disabled person is a reasonable adjustment. I would do it anyway and then contest the fines in court.

You'll lose.

Do you really think that's not already happened with original ULEZ (2019) or first expansion (2021) or in any of the other non-London zones?

You're not being prevented from driving, you can still do that but you have to pay the appropriate charge. It's been thrashed out exhaustively people with disabilities are subject to the charge (though certain classes of disability vehicle have an extended transition period). Giving a lift to someone with a disability does not make you exempt from the charge, any more than it does people with disabilities.

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 12:44

clarebear111 · 31/07/2023 11:15

I still don't understand what you think an unnecessary motorised journey is. Is a mum taking her kids to school an unnecessary motorised journey?

If you want to target the unnecessary motorised journeys, you first need to define them adequately and then find a way of targeting them. This one size fits all approach helps no one.

What do you like about your LTN? Is it that you now effectively live on a cul-de-sac? Do you not feel bad that the only way you get to enjoy traffic free streets is because others are mopping up those journeys?

There's no reason to presume you are a majority either. In fact, I think this thread shows what a divisive issue this is.

We have tried to make our feelings plain locally. 7000 signatures on a petition against vs 300 on a petition in favour. The local authority are not interested because of the revenue they raise in fines. Please do not think this is about anything other than the money.

It would be if your hypothetical mum was taking her children to school by car and wanted to do it through a neighbourhood that was not her own. And of course if that route took her on her onward journey to work through other short cuts.

I can see why people do that, but your hypothetical mum is going have to get up a bit earlier or get her partner, if she has one, or a friend if she has one of those, to share the duties, and have to go literally round the houses rather than cutting through another residential neighbourhood where people might be walking their children to school or where children are walking by themselves.

Or she could walk. It's her choice.

My mum allowed me to walk to school without an adult with my friends from the age of about nine. -It was never less than two and up to six by the time we collected children on our crocodile walk starting at my friend's house in the same road . We were sensible little girls and the roads were relatively safe. We only had to cross one big road, and it was a bad one, but there was a lollipop lady. I loved it. It made me feel very grown up.

I live in an LTN yet I'd hesitate to allow a nine year old to walk on the roads near me unaccompanied by an adult to the nearest school and that is purely because of traffic and stupid impatient drivers and not paedophiles. There are two big roads between my LTN and the nearest primary and one major including a bus route to cross. If someone is good enough to stop at the crossings to let me over, I always go halfway and peek round to see if the driver coming the other way isn't going to stop. The second one is light controlled and people always try to jump it. That is too much to expect of a child but it's shameful for a driver not to anticipate a little person they can't see or someone who is a bit slow crossing the road. And yet they do. All the time. Sometimes mums.

Walking to school with your friend is a very valuable thing to teach children about independence and starting to take responsibility for yourself and if we don't do that, then their lives are diminished.

That's why I like my LTN. My road is not a cul-de-sac. It's a residential through route between two major roads that used to be used as a rat-run. But because of the LTN it's not any more.

People who live in the neighbourhood are still free to drive up and down it so I still have to use the Green Cross Code before stepping out, but it's much better. Drivers often wave thanks when I wait before stepping out in front of them, which is nice. Most drivers are nice. I know. I used to be one. It will still be some time, though before I chance getting a cat.

Of course I don't know whether the majority of local residents agree with me that it is a blessed thing, but one thing I'm sure of is that because I live here and you don't I am in a better place to know that than you. Similarly I don't know what it's like where you live so I would never presume to say. I neither know nor care what the council is getting in fines because the quality of my life has improved. I don't even have to clean my windows as often.

But like I said, we'll see how it comes out in my local elections and yours. Perhaps you will get your way. I hope I get mine.

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 12:46

ScribblingPixie · 31/07/2023 11:39

Some people need to use one [a car] often - and it's just plain stupid to say that isn't so.

It's stupid to say that there are never times when you need to or prefer to use a car.

Do these two sentences mean the same thing to you?

The short answer is yes [my square brackets] but feel free to give me your longer one.

ScribblingPixie · 31/07/2023 13:04

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 12:46

The short answer is yes [my square brackets] but feel free to give me your longer one.

Oh ok, I see the problem. Those two sentences mean entirely different things, @limitedperiodonly.

woodhill · 31/07/2023 13:12

The mum probably hasn't time to walk the dc as she has to go on to work

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 13:19

ScribblingPixie · 31/07/2023 13:04

Oh ok, I see the problem. Those two sentences mean entirely different things, @limitedperiodonly.

In the words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 13:23

woodhill · 31/07/2023 13:12

The mum probably hasn't time to walk the dc as she has to go on to work

No one is saying your hypothetical mum can't drive her children to school before going to work so long as she takes them the long way round.

We all have time if we get up earlier. Isn't that the standard Mumsnet response to people who say they are always late?

woodhill · 31/07/2023 13:28

True but still rubbish for those who are on the boundary roads and it must cause more congestion on the other roads

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 13:59

woodhill · 31/07/2023 13:28

True but still rubbish for those who are on the boundary roads and it must cause more congestion on the other roads

True but it was rubbish 30-odd years ago when I moved to Northolt in west London, entirely of my own volition, and had to commute by car to my job in East Ham in east London along the North Circular every day.

The journey from my previous home took 30 minutes by car and the new one took 1hr 20 minutes on a good day. There weren't many good days and I never got up early enough anyway.

I don't think I was on time ever and used to slink in.

I realise now I could have made life much easier for myself if I'd got out of bed up to 30 minutes earlier at 6.45am - 7am. Now I'm typing that I realise it's not even that early. And if I've have got a move on getting ready and ironed my clothes the night before I could have shaved some time off that.

I'd curse every single hold up - someone hesitating at the Target roundabout. Someone crawling past the Hoover Factory to enjoy its splendour, some other dolt terrified to go on the Hanger Lane Gyratory and causing a back up. And on and on all the way for about 20 miles.

The only consolation was that sometimes I'd be trundling along on my carriageway and glance over at the other one and see it was at a standstill.

I used to try to dodge the North Circular to rat run down residential roads but they were closed to commuters - as I now realise was exactly right - so accepted my fate.

That's the important thing - residents should not have to put up with commuters rat-running their roads because they haven't got themselves organised.

For me, it would have have been 20-30 minutes out of bed. That's not much. But I don't care how long it takes to make the journey. Just work it out and do it.

woodhill · 31/07/2023 14:01

Sympathies

I know where you mean

limitedperiodonly · 31/07/2023 14:04

woodhill · 31/07/2023 14:01

Sympathies

I know where you mean

The Hoover Factory is lovely, isn't it?

This one of my favourite songs

elvis costello - hoover factory

http://newsoulcitylive.tumblr.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FAzWgY8Ftc

Sigmama · 31/07/2023 14:39

You know lots of parents, hypothetical or not, cycle their kids to school and still manage to get to work on time. Schemes in cities such as ltns and school streets are trying to encourage exactly this.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread