Settle a private v state argument for me?

[Givemyheadpiece]

Friend sent kids to prep schools, and now doing senior private schools til GSCE.

then the plan is to put the kids in state school for A levels to ‘fool’ the Uni admissions people - Oxbridge in particular- into thinking the kids were state schooled all along and get them into good unis - as many universities are now trying to give more bright state schooled/ low income kids a chance to get in.

I told her that they can see which school the kids studied at pre 6th form and that will be considered -

YANBU - of course it won’t fool admissions
YABU - she’s right, you can go Eton all the way then switch for A levels and no-one will know

I don’t have a clue. But I do remember that my private school used to hold specific oxbridge coaching sessions in sixth form, and everyone who attended them got an offer (although it was only around 10 or so girls).

I also have a friend who went to state school who went to Cambridge.

I suppose it depends which is best for you. Academic ability and character will come first and foremost and IME both things are built well in private schools.

But I suppose technically if they are applying from a state school in sixth form then that would be the thing the universities look at. Personally I’d be going for grades above anything else though which usually means private is better!

DH
teaches at Cambridge and they are all very well aware of the state 6th forms favoured by private school parents, it's thought of as student laundering.

‘I don’t have a clue. But I do remember that my private school used to hold specific oxbridge coaching sessions in sixth form, and everyone who attended them got an offer (although it was only around 10 or so girls). ‘

yes, but the ‘problem’ for private school parents is that uni’s are now not offering places to those schools the way they used to.

She’s not wrong. There’s a Sixth Form in Cambridge is the classic for doing that, the Uni’s obviously know but don’t seem to care. All DD’s friends who went there from their private school got into Oxford/Cambridge/Russell Group.

They won't get away with it. Their GCSEs will give them away.

That's one way to make sure they have a wash

Universities look at where you did GCSEs as well as where you did A Levels.

And simply going to a state sixth form won't give them a "university leg up" anyway. They'd need to go to a state sixth form with poor results and poor history of getting students into university.

This has been going on for years. Even back a decade ago the universities seemed savvy enough to see what was going on in Oxford (Cherwell becoming very popular in sixth form for lots of my children’s private school contemporaries).

Far shrewder is the use of several tutors by state school pupils to boost grades, which doesn’t have to be declared on any forms.

many universities are now trying to give more bright state schooled/ low income kids a chance to get in.

But children who've been to private schools are still over-represented in top universities aren't they, just not as over represented as before? So wouldn't they still be better off at the private 6th form?

Depends on the school you send them to for sixth form. If it's a successful state school which regularly achieves good grades and is rated highly, it won't help - pupils from these schools are seen as just as privileged as those who go to private schools.

If you can get them into a rough sixth form where there is a history of underachievement and, ideally, problems with violence or drug abuse amongst the students, this may count in their favour provided they're not ground down by the poor teaching standards and environment.

It's a risk though because universities will still look at where you studied before the sixth form.

If your associate wants to game the system properly they should send their kids to a state school that's rated very poorly and has issues with pupil violence/drug abuse/bullying etc. no later than when they'd start secondary school. But also provide them with private tutoring so they still get a proper education. This is probably the best of both worlds, they'll have the opportunity to get good grades but still appear to have had a troubled upbringing.

It will make no difference because on the UCAS application you have to put not just your GCSE results but also the institution attended. So it will be very obvious to admissions tutors when DC have gone private till Y11 and then moved to state.

The reality of the situation is that universities just want to fill places with the best and most able students and, despite what they might say about inclusion etc and encouraging students from deprived backgrounds, I suspect the whole state-private thing is a bit of a red herring. Top universities are full of students who attended private school all the way through.

What I would say to the friend though is, a state sixth form will be a very different beast to a private school one, and not all students cope well with a transition from a high structured and learning-managed environment to one where students are expected to do a lot of independent study themselves. Private sixth forms at our local schools are very like the Y7-Y11 school experience in all honesty and students' learning is focused and directed by tutors, very little 'free' period time and many will expect students to attend a normal school day every day. A state sixth form college on the other hand will have far fewer 'contact' hours (could be as few as one or two hours a day, no regular registration) and students will be expected to be self-motivated and manage their learning in a very much more independent way.

Many a private school student has had the wheels fall off when moving to a state sixth form for this very reason. Some will cope, of course, but many more will not.

So your friend could find that a move to state sixth form for Y12/Y13 may not quite work out in the way they think and their DC could end up getting much lower grades as a result.

Can you imagine being one of these kids put through this schooling and explaining this to one your actually disadvanted mates? Like "yeah my parents passed me off as a commoner like you to give me even more priveleged access". Absolute clown behaviour.

Its pupils from certain areas/schools who get a bit of a boost at University admissions, not Private schools being discriminated against.

DD is in Yr7 and was taken on a widening participation trip to a University recently as our town counts. (Her school actually covers everything from council estates in ex mining villages to millionaires... we are no where near either extteeme)

In London I know of many parents who are now trying this for sixth form - particularly as they see older children in the private school’s sixth form struggle to get offers (from excellent non-oxbridge universities)when predicted three A stars.

I don’t know if it will work, but as I understand it the GCSE institution is factored in. But surely attending a state 6th form, even a good one, isn’t treated exactly the same as a private one when it comes to admissions?

DS had a boy join his state sixth form from a private boarding school.
He made sure to tell them his boarding school was rubbish, his parents couldn't work out why they were paying for it and the state sixth form was much better.

No idea whether he meant it or was spinning a line, but he had no problems fitting in :)

I sometimes wonder whether it goes the other way - if I were to send my kids private for sixth form, would universities take into account that their GCSEs were obtained at an inner city comp, or would they be treated as private school kids with no other context taken into account?

My parents did this with me and it worked.

I think it's idiotic. They will see straight through it. Also why pay tens of thousands of pounds for years on end to get your child a better education, and then take away all those advantages for A level, when top marks are hardest to get and most important to achieve?

If I were going to send my child private at all (and I'm not), I'd do it at 6th form so they would get the most benefit from small classes and maximise their chances of getting Astars and As.

There seems to be a trope running through private school parents that private school students are unfairly discriminated against by universities. It's nonsense, Oxbridge still takes about 40% of its students from private schools. They are just not quite so much advantaged as they used to be. The best chance to get to a top uni is still overwhelmingly to use private school advantages to get stellar grades.

Private schools are still massively overrepresented and GCSEs are on the UCAS so not sure it makes much/any difference to anything.

Large sixth form colleges tend to offer more subject choices than any school can, including privates, don’t run into timetabling issues and have excellent teaching without any of the disruption or issue you might get at secondary since it’s optional to be there and you need decent grades for A-Levels. So I completely get why you might favour a switch. The uni admissions thing I suspect is nonsense though!

Jesus. Why don't you just carry on wherever your DC is happy and not out so much pressure on a successful Oxbridge application? Surely your job as a parent is to let them know that they could be just as happy at another uni if they don't get in?

It’s as well to remember that independent schools vary enormously. Some are highly selective, taking only the most able pupils - others will take just about anybody whose parents can pay the fees. So ‘private’ does not automatically equate to sixth form excellence.

Widening participation will look at where the child was aged 16 and were for secondary - this will fool no one

Also, just cos it's secondary doesn't afford any privileges, the criteria ie proportion of free school meals/highest level of education of parents etc are v tight to indicate actual deprivation/need etc. My kids have been state all the way in a deprived London borough but still don't score particularly highly due to the school itself - many others in the borough are flagged - so it really is very specific (rightly - to target help where it's needed).

The whole thing is ridiculous - what do the kids actually want to do? Awful pushy parents I could never be friends with someone like that

And? The majority of Ox/Cam/RG entrants were state educated.

OP of course unis can see which school the GCSEs were from. Any many many parents think this plan is advantageous. It isn't (other than enabling their dcs to avoid the state school oiks at 16 ).

There is though not one university who gives extra credence or a reduced offer simply to those who are at state school. Not one. How could there be - 85+% of uni applicants are from state schools. Does your friend really imagine they're all getting reduced offers?

She will need to find a sixth form which is failing with very very poor results, move into a very poor area and make sure both her and her dp lose their jobs so their dc can claim free school meals. Then she might get an offer one grade lower than the standard.

Her poor kids.