Woman jailed over (very late on in pregnancy) abortion, released on appeal...

[FadeAwayAndRadiate]

Carla Foster: Mother jailed over lockdown abortion to be released - BBC News

So should she have been released? Or made to serve her sentence?

YABU, no she should NOT have been released.

YANBU, yes she SHOULD have been released.

Interested to hear people views.

Theres no public appetite to change the law. The government dont change the law because they’ve been recommended to by an advisory body if the public are almost entirely against it, so it’s not going to happen thankfully.

I think it unlikely they would support decriminalizing whilst being morally opposed to it, and unwilling to provide the service. Again this is something you hope to be the case as opposed to something you know to be the case. As far as anecdata goes, I personally do know doctors that support this measure, and would provide the service.

Though, if you don’t think that doctors will provide the service then what’s the harm in decriminalizing it then?

There doesn’t necessarily need to be public appetite, given that the UK doesn’t practice direct democracy. We shall see how it plays out, but I would not be surprised if decriminalization happens.

Ultimately I think the clinic has to bear some responsibility in this. They sent her pills out in the post without an ultrasound to confirm gestation. That’s on them!

Yes she lied but many people lie, some genuinely don’t know. I see women come in thinking they are 12 weeks pregnant to find they are in fact 28. I’ve seen women not know they were pregnant and a scan shows them to be 36 weeks pregnant.

This happens regularly so why on earth an abortion clinic ever felt it safe to be sending controlled medications out in the post without an ultrasound is beyond me!

This is a policy and process failure!

Never be enough doctors to make it a valid service, accessible to all? How common do you think it is for women to want to abort foetuses at a late stage of gestation? It's not as if women are routinely getting pregnant and then deciding to abort at 30+ weeks. Such cases are extremely rare.

Do you know how many babies are born to smokers, alcoholics, drug users etc. Some of those babies are stillborn. Some die shortly after birth. Some die from SIDS that they have been made more prone to due to their mothers behaviour. In each of these cases the mothers actions led to the death of a baby, in each of these cases the mothers will have been informed of the risks of that they are doing, but we don’t charge them and lock them up because while it’s sad that the baby died ultimately they have the right to do what they want to their own body.

What comes next? Neglect charge because a baby has spina bifida and the mother didn’t take folic acid?

Women either have the right to their own bodies or they don’t. You can’t pick and choose when it’s ok and when it’s not.

FFS there's already a thread about this. Or do you just want the attention?

Yes but they would have to ensure that it would be practically available to all women even if rarely used. The only way they could make it work would be if every doctor who currently carries out abortions was suddenly expected to do it - otherwise we would have doctors setting their own arbitrary time limits and that’s not workable. And I doubt they would agree to that.

I think that aborting a baby that late (except for certain medical reasons) is abhorrent, but I am glad she has been released.

Prison should be for rehabilitation and/or to protect the public. In this case, all locking her up would do is punish her family.

Except this baby died as a result of premature birth so it’s not “well beyond” survival at all. The drugs she took (mifepristone and misoprostol) DO NOT stop the babies heart or do anything to end the babies life. They simply induce labour.

Abortion is usually carried out at a gestation where inducing labour means the fetus cannot survive. Women having late abortions due to abnormalities etc. need to have feticide (an injection to stop the fetal heart) BEFORE taking mifepristone and misoprostol as the baby can be born alive otherwise. These drugs alone do not “kill a baby”. The baby likely died from complications during labour or prematurity.

So you believe prostitution should be legal in all forms and they should be allowed to walk naked past primary schools every day?

Sure you can, the law does just that by saying abortion is ok before X weeks but not after?

Most things are not all or nothing. What would be murder in peace time might be fine in a war zone. Lying is mostly thought to be wrong but presumably not if you are lying to save someone's life. You weigh up the lesser evil.

She was charged under an ancient law and now it’s being overturned clearly. So the law isn’t as clear cut as you want it to be.

The abortion limit isn’t as clear cut as you want it to. Severe disability isn’t as clear cut as you want it to be. Abortions have happened after the legal cut off due to cleft lip and palate for example. I wouldn’t call that severe disability, clearly someone else did to sign off on this.

There are lots and lots of grey areas here. But ultimately the clinic should never have sent out controlled medication without performing an ultrasound to establish gestation so in my eyes this is a system failure.

Oh come on. It would be a system failure if she actually had no idea she was so far along and they just sent them out regardless. But she lied. She actively deceived them. Do you not think there needs to be an element of personal responsibility here? If I lied to the doctor in an emergency that I wasn’t allergic to penicillin and I was given some, and had a reaction, would that be a ‘system failure’ as well?

I believe every person has the right to make decisions over their own body, assuming they are not being forced or coerced into those decisions and assuming those decisions do not harm another person. A fetus legally does not have a right to life before birth. They are not legally an independent person no matter what gestation. The woman took tablets that were prescribed to her. Yes she lied to get them but drug users lie every day to try and get narcotics and there are systems in place to protect against this. The fact the clinic did not have a safe system for this eventuality is their responsibility.

Do you think she’s the first person in the world to lie?

How many people do you think genuinely don’t know how far pregnant they are? Because I see it DAILY.

There are systems in place to prevent drug users accessing narcotics, they also lie. But we protect against it.

Most people don’t lie about allergies but even if they did the previous allergic reaction would be flagged on medical notes.

Sending controlled medication in the post is dangerous and should never have happened. What if it someone else got hold of it? What if the pregnancy was ectopic? That could lead to rupture and life threatening bleeding. Prior to covid abortion pills would NEVER have been given without an ultrasound first. Covid should not have changed that. The ultrasound is there for safety and to ensure legal limits are being adhered to.

So you believe they have complete autonomy as long as you’re comfortable with how they reached their decision..?

If she has lied, then it’s on her isn’t it? I struggle with how many people seem to think that absolutely everything we do can ultimately be traced back to and blamed on the government, or public services. They shouldn’t have sent the pills out for the reasons you mention, but that’s a separate issue to what she used them for and her deception.

Not what I said.

Compete autonomy providing it was their decision and they are mentally competent to make that decision.

Of course the lie is on her. But ultimately the system failed. Prior to covid it was clear that it was not safe to provide these pills without an ultrasound, covid didn’t suddenly make it safer to send them in the post. It should never have happened.

The lady concerned was not mentally well, so under your model she may well have been denied her late termination anyway.

I do think the business should be responsible as well. At least if they see the woman there is some kind of precautions being taken against women being forced to take the pills, being severely damaged by them, or indeed doing as this woman did. It's a bit like selling guns in supermarkets I think.

A Baby at that gestation would survive with very minimal medical intervention. Maybe if the laws are going to stay they should offer C-sections with the agreement of giving the baby up for adoption.

I do assume she is a monster who is mentally challenged to have thought this was a good option though.

Mentally unwell is not the same as not having capacity.

This makes no sense at all. So your belief is in complete autonomy yet you would want women to have tests and assessments and be questioned before they can exercise that right? Doesn’t that defeat the point?