To think it is wrong for teachers to scream and shout at students

[Scotlandma]

i was thinking today about the behavior of teachers when I was in school (10 years ago) and how some teachers would scream and shout sometimes in students faces.

it never happened to me but I was definitely scared of becoming the target.

does that still happen today? I have a young DC and can’t imagine a teacher screaming or shouting at him I think I’d have the police, ofstead and the department for education on the line!

Just to flip this around OP- you have a lovely well-behaved child, who never needs more than one "no". How will you feel when that child is unable to learn because other kids are pissing about? Or when that child feels unsafe at school because they never see teachers dealing effectively with nasty behaviour.

Sometimes a controlled but raised voice is needed to reset boundaries and expectations, and to reassure the other kids that the adults are in charge. (I'm talking about dealing with physical fights, or bullying incidents, and I'm not talking about out of control screaming/yelling)

Yes, it is wrong for teachers to do this in most cases.

You may find that the new head of OFSTED does not share your views about shouting

It definitely happened when I was at school (40 years ago) but 10 years ago seems very recent.

I had my first school job 11 years ago and raising your voice was very much not the done thing, let alone screaming.

One of my teachers threw the back of an upright piano at me in front of a class full of students. This was in the mid 1990s!

I’d accidentally put a staple in a teachers desk when I was trying to staple some music sheets together - a complete accident - and he screamed at me and then hurled a great big chunk of matting and wood my way. I only just managed to avoid it.

I was asked if I was going to complain about him and I said no. I wish I’d escalated it. He was an asshole.

If parents could be a fly on the wall in school and see how awful behaviour is, they would view things differently. Yelling at kids is not ideal and is certainly not encouraged in schools these days. However, in many schools you'd have to have the patience of a saint to never shout.

And to those who say 'It's pathetic - it shows that the teacher has lost control.'... do you not realise that teachers and schools have very limited ability to control very disruptive students? I'd be interested to know how you would control a very difficult bunch of teenagers who are bigger than you and don't want to be in school or do any work, and who won't cooperate with going to detention etc. Month after month of dealing with this would be enough to make almost anyone shout occasionally.

And this is why our country is falling apart, we are such a joke to the rest of the world.

Awful. Bizarre how some posters are banging on about teachers having no choice but to shout, yell and shame because of the naughty (often SEN or neglected) children. Because it's isn't always the naughty kids who are at the receiving end of such primitive and hostile treatment, it's also rule abiding kids who have dared to make a mistake or who have an off day. I am disgusted that some people think being aggressive to children is acceptable behaviour.

And this is why our country is falling apart, we are such a joke to the rest of the world.
That's rather facile.

I don't think anyone here has said they think shaming children is OK. Have you made that up? Or have I missed that?

And this bit is definitely made up.

because of the naughty (often SEN or neglected) children

No, because of the children whose parents believe they can do no wrong, and the children who know there are few meaningful consequences. (Permanent exclusion is rare)

There used to be a series called Educating Essex, Educating Yorkshire etc about life in secondary schools. What I remember being shocked about wasn't the behaviour of the teachers but the appalling behaviour of some kids and the disgraceful way some kids spoke to teachers. I'd probably be at the end of my tether a lot quicker than the teachers were. They must have the patience of saints.

We were caned and hit. 1980’s.

This thread is hilarious.

Honestly the more I read on here the more I realise why the current generation are how they are.

"Hello officer, I'd like to report my son's school teacher for shouting at my little angel baby."

This was a long time ago. I was screamed and shouted at by my male teacher. Not only that he took me by the shoulders and shook me. The reason. I was having difficulty understanding something we were doing in arithmetic said it was a long time ago

A teacher bellowed at my child, in front of me, and I was delighted. He has little respect for rules and is very rude to me, so she told him off and he listened. Brilliant.

@RudsyFarmer So, you can't manage your own offspring and have to rely on teachers to teach them some manners? That's sad.

Agree

German teacher used to drop a hymn book down the long front panel of his gown and swipe people round the back of the head with it. Some were very cruel - using a scapegoat. Regularly blackboard dusters were chucked to get someone’s attention . Several used the belt. Oh happy days.

For all those saying it was acceptable because the kids were probably awful - I was a quiet, studious and nervous student - I was bullied dreadfully (and very little done about it but that's another story). I was in top set for all subjects and generally those classes were very well behaved student and engaged in learning.

I remember three teachers in particular that were completely unhinged. One RE teacher in particular screamed in my face because she said I had rolled my eyes. I hadn't. She was on a general screaming rant because some students had taken their blazers off on a very hot day without her telling them they could do so. If you think that's acceptable then 🤷🏻‍♀️ I'm 42 and can still remember sitting shaking because of the maths teacher. In fact I dropped from a predicted grade A to a B because I begged to be moved to the middle group as she made me so nervous.

I'm not like that at all now - but I'm 42 and still remember these moments clearly. What a sad way to be remembered.

On another note my 8 year old son has SEN and I would be heartbroken if anyone treated him like that - regardless of his behaviour I'm afraid.

Generally don’t use shouting as it rarely works. I admit in 18 years of teaching I have shouted a few times and lost my temper. We’re only human and some of the behaviour you are faced with each and every day can be extremely challenging.
if it’s a teachers only strategy then they need support to develop their classroom management.

I am a teacher. Been teaching for many years, there has been a shift and now schools will not tolerate shouting at students

I’m a primary teacher, so let’s weigh in here. I shouted on an occasion when I was newly qualified. Not in a ‘lost-control’ way, but I saw it as ‘acting’ to demonstrate ‘I am cross with you’.

Now that I have several years of experience in managing behaviour, I never shout (although may use a loud voice to be heard across a busy room). It’s not at all necessary. I manage behaviour by building relationships and setting expectations. I am firm and take no nonsense, but also I’m kind and nurturing. Frightening a child achieves absolutely nothing. It’s enough to have a quiet conversation about behaviour and set appropriate consequences (e.g. if being chatty/silly during a lesson, you might have to sit on your own whilst you complete a task). If a child respects you and feels secure around you, they tend to follow your expectations to the best of their ability.

I have clocked up quite a lot of experience with children with all sorts of behavioural challenges. Behaviour is communication; an engaged, appropriately challenged and content child rarely misbehaves. I now operate with the assumption that if a child is not behaving appropriately then I need to identify why and respond to meet their needs. I’m not a saint, I do get exasperated at times, but I remind myself that they are children and I’m the adult.

I appreciate secondary is completely different. I’d probably scream hysterically within my first ten minutes of being in a secondary classroom.

The amount of overidentification with “the authorities” and the combination of servility and bullying displayed here by those defending the “fuck your hateful kids” brigade is typical of mumsnet. It is obviously poor teaching and a failure of control and training when a teacher feels the need to scream at a child. Even those defending the proposition admit it is because they consider the students irremediably awful and the school setting broken: in other words it is the behavior chosen by the losing side in the “war” for control. It should not need to be said but if you don’t love teaching, regard your pupils and their parents as the enemy, and can not control your classroom with other than the implied threat of violence you are in the wring profession.

Yes, I agree. I remember the "screamers" were usually the weak ones who couldn't control their classes and couldn't command any respect. They'd let low level disruption get out of hand and then blow up. They'd also often be the "scatty" ones who were disorganised etc. Pupils basically never knew where they were with that kind of teacher. One minute all friendly and chatty and then it was like a switch was turned and they'd just lose control!

By contrast, I vividly remember our GCSE history teacher - she must have been in her 60s, above state retirement age, and probably less than 5 feet tall - she was tiny! But she could "command" the classroom with just a withering look! And she was a damned good teacher. There was virtually no misbehaviour in her class. Not only did she never scream, I don't think we ever heard her raise her voice. She basically talked at normal volume, very slowly and calmly, and somehow it "calmed" the class akin to a kind of relaxation therapy or even hypnosis! Hard to explain really but you could go into her class all hyped up and come out chilled which also helped with behavioural issues! She also gave utmost respect to every pupil - reprimands (for missing homework or being late etc) were always saved for afterwards in private and not in front of the classmates, but again, weren't in a shouty/abusive way, it was always respectful, consequences explained, etc. And unlike "some" other teachers, she never resorted to ridicule, bullying, etc - she never made fun of a single pupil and never singled anyone out - if someone didn't answer a question correctly or couldn't answer at all, she just moved on, no "judgement" etc.

@pikkumyy77

It should not need to be said but if you don’t love teaching, regard your pupils and their parents as the enemy, and can not control your classroom with other than the implied threat of violence you are in the wring profession.

You're absolutely right, no it shouldn't need to be said, but it does need saying. Far too many people in various professions clearly hate the people they're supposed to be there to help and serve. Lots of teachers clearly see their pupils as a hindrance rather than the entire reason they have a job!

Obviously this thread is about schools, but it's also so obvious in the threads about Universities, with so many teaching and lecturing staff clearly hating their students. It was particularly bad during covid when some lecturers stayed home all year and whinged endlessly about "needy" students actually wanting "in person" sessions, having the nerve to ask questions, etc. It was awful to see just how little respect the lecturers had for their students, and minimising their suffering being stuck in tiny flats staring at computer screens all day with no access to departmental resources nor the Uni library etc which all remained closed for far too long, far longer than the actual lockdown restrictions, etc.

You don't need to "bellow" to tell someone off! It's never appropriate in any setting to do that.