To think it is wrong for teachers to scream and shout at students

[Scotlandma]

i was thinking today about the behavior of teachers when I was in school (10 years ago) and how some teachers would scream and shout sometimes in students faces.

it never happened to me but I was definitely scared of becoming the target.

does that still happen today? I have a young DC and can’t imagine a teacher screaming or shouting at him I think I’d have the police, ofstead and the department for education on the line!

@Scotlandma you really do have no idea wha schools are like today.

You think it’s ok for teachers to be assuaged because other teachers may be racist?

Not sure why people are citing experiences from 40 years ago. Corporal punishment was legal until 1998!

But would a lay patient with say, a tumour be able to do a surgeon's job and remove it? That's the point being made.

What crime has been committed by a teacher shouting at a pupil? And do you honestly think seriously disruptive behaviour is unusual in many schools? Straight questions.

But on the original point, at school 20 something years ago a PE teacher used to lose control, screaming and yelling, causing a scene anytime something went wrong for instance me not knowing the rules of basketball with no briefing and no prior exposure to the game. I can honestly say she has put me off sport for life. But was it a police matter? I can't see how.

I think this is very much school dependent, though.

I started secondary school in the early 90s and behaviour was pretty shite. Lots of bullying - including racism and homophobia, a lot of violence, lots of disruption in the lessons.

I started teaching twenty years ago in an EAZ school, if anyone remembers them. The behaviour there was even worse. My perception is that behaviour is actually better and I’m sure that’s not exactly true, it’s probably more that my own classroom management skills have improved, but I do think there is a bit of a prevailing myth that in the early 2000s kids sat quietly and learned and listened and they really didn’t!

It should never happen.
It's a form of abuse and contravenes the Standards for professional practice for registered teachers on the GTC. I'd report anyone I witnessed doing this, it's disgusting.

I’m a teacher, I’ve worked in quite a few schools now including the school I went to in the 2000s.

Behaviour is significantly better now than in the 2000s.

Classroom management is better too.

And corporal punishment was only legal in the independent sector until 1998. It has been illegal since 1987 in the state sector.

I can - sort of - understand why people are talking about thirty/forty years ago. I have to admit, when I look back at my primary school days, I can only conclude most of my teachers were barking mad tbh I think humiliation was a classroom management tactic used a lot; certainly at my school. And yeah OK, it is a hard job, we know it is a hard job but still, for very little children that does often stay with you. Remember that line in Pink Floyd about ‘dark sarcasm in the classroom’? That didn’t come from nowhere.

It is quite interesting to consider what changed and why. I do think for a variety of (unfortunately mostly horrible) reasons we have stopped seeing the world as Kids Bad, Adults Good. Go back in time forty years and tell your parents that nice Mr Jones touched you up and you’d probably get a slap for lying. Now, we do believe kids - not always on MN, admittedly, but we do at least give the benefit of the doubt - but with that has come some power children hold over adults. Not everyone likes that.

I can only speak for me here but discipline, when I was a kid, was fear. You were scared to misbehave because the likely consequence was some form of public humiliation, whether that was having to stand in the corner (oh, the shame!) being hit or smacked, being insulted - some teachers did do this - and yes, screamed or shouted at, which is very different to a raised voice.

I can’t remember where or why or how I realised how ineffective fear is as discipline or even when I came to this realisation. I’d love to say I had a road to Damascus moment where I suddenly saw the light but it was more a very gradual realisation. I do know (this will sound daft) watching a programme about a man who trained horses made me think. He kept using the phrase ‘mutual respect’ and I think it was one of those phrases I’d seen in the teaching standards and never given much thought to. But I looked at what he was doing with the horses - these massive animals and he was saying he would never be able to force them so had to employ other tactics. Words like trust and respect and tone and working together resonated with me.

So this is a long, long ramble and I’m not going to claim I’ve never shouted (I have) or that teachers shouldn’t shout (sometimes you have to if only to be heard over the initial din) but in fairness there is a massive difference between screaming AT one kid and yelling OVER kids to get their attention. And of course in an emergency situation you’re going to shout (Albert DON’T TOUCH THAT - oh.) But actually shouting to discipline isn’t going to work and it will just lose you your voice and your soul.

I had a Geography teacher in the 90s who loved a bit of humiliation. One of his favourites was Human Drawing Pin. You had to hold a piece of paper against the wall with your nose for however long he deemed necessary.

Still happens unfortunately. My very shy kind and sweet daughter was called a ‘thicko’ by her maths teacher (my daughter has dyslexia and dyscalculia) and it effected her for years.
I think some teachers are responsible for a lot of damage done to some kids. Teachers are supposed to bring out the best in students whatever their best may be, not ridicule them or scare them.

No doubt there are some teachers that like to bully

but a teacher being stern and at times raising their voice I feel I necessary

ds is enjoying the attention he is getting from messing around in class and complains the teachers have shouted at him (but loves that he is a bit of a rebel)I support the teachers -‘d grounded him too other parents have complained 🙄

I left school at 18, 25 years ago and never saw a teacher shout or scream in any pupils face.

Tell people off yes, send people out of the room, give condemnation marks or detentions or raise their voice to get pupils attention yes.

I don't think there should be any reason for teachers to be shouting in a child's face.

This happened to me once. I was Year 5, so I'd have been 10. I was always well-behaved and hard-working at school, had never been told off until this point.

I can still remember exactly how it happened.

We'd done some handwriting practice, and our teacher was a real stickler for presentation, and on that occasion, I'd forgotten to write the date in my book.
When she marked it, she wrote "Date?" where I'd forgotten to write it. And somehow, my brain decided, "that looks messy, I'll cross it out." So I scribbled through her comment and thought no more about it.
A couple of days later, just after lunch, she calls me up to her desk and begins screaming in my face. I was HORRIFIED. I remember just looking out of the window over her shoulder as she continues to yell at me. When she finally finished yelling, she sent me back to my table, and I gave a sort of relieved, anxious smile at a sympathetic-looking friend, and she began to yell some more!

In hindsight, I realised what I did was pretty rude - I'm a primary school teacher myself now, and would certainly tell off a pupil of mine if they did the same - but I've never thought it justified the screaming-at that I got.

This event was nearly 30 years ago now, and I still remember it like it was yesterday. I'm a bit of a grudge holder, always have been, and never liked her from that moment on. I've never been good at hiding my opinions, so I suspect she knew, and then didn't like me either.
I know for a fact that she told my mum at parents evening, and my future Year 6 teacher that I was rude and ill-mannered. Fortunately, my parents chalked it up as a mis-match of personalities, as I'd NEVER had a teacher say a bad word against me until that point, and my Year 6 teacher seemed to make a point to get his own opinion of me, which I was always grateful for, and I really liked him. If anyone knows a Dave Allen, primary school teacher, who'd be about 58 now (he turned 30 the year he taught us), he was my favourite teacher!

I don't agree. If another parent witnessed a teacher bullying my child I'd want them to say something. While you have to be careful not to interfere in things you may not understand its important not to be a bystander to wrongdoing in any part of our lives.

This. And the children of the parents who want to call the police because they’ve been shouted at do not succeed in the workplace or in adult life. Children also perceive shouting differently to adults - I’ve heard “don’t shout at me,” said to an adult who is simply using a firm tone. You throw a chair at work there isn’t going to be a gentle chat about your POV, you will be sacked 🤷‍♀️. You talk to people like shit in adult life the way some kids do to teachers, while expecting no come back, your adult life will be shit.

Because it may be disproportionately terrifying to a child who is not like you, (who may suffer nasty abuse at home), and because it reveals to the rest of the class that the teacher has lost control and models bad behaviour.

There is a difference between shouting in class and shouting at someone.

I shout a lot. However, if I’m actually annoyed by someone, I’m cool as a cucumber.

For example, I use a lot of stories/anecdotes in my teaching, and sometimes it can get “noisy” IE I’m partially acting something out so it’s just theatrics. (I’m not a drama teacher, or English)

Another example of my yelling is to get the class’s attention. Again, my classroom is generally quite active/noisy (kids are rarely sat quietly writing) so obviously I need to be pretty loud to get the attention of 30+ teenagers who are doing group work.

I might raise my voice in disapproval to a whole class, but again it is not yelling, it’s a stern voice. And also, it’s acting. It hasn’t ACTUALLY angered me that the class spent 5 minutes more getting their things ready than I’d planned. And it’s most definitely not yelling.

I have heard teachers yell, but it does seem to be dying out as more young teachers who have been taught positive reinforcement enter the profession, and those who were taught to rule with an iron fist die out.

My Y4 teacher Mrs S shouted and screamed - many did, but she really stood out!

She also threw whiteboard markers so they'd bounce off your desk and wake you up if you were zoning out - oh how we laughed the time it flew past and landed in her coffee on her desk! If she needed to leave the portakabin, she put one of the class snitches in front of the whiteboard, to write the names of anyone who spoke or moved from their desk so that she could deal with them on her return.

She could control a fucking class mind, with no TA or anything which is more than can be said for DS1's teacher and TA combo, with a slightly smaller class in an actual classroom - they've let the nasty element take over! Last year when he had a slightly more old school shouty teacher, there was none of it!

Back in the 70's when I was a school, being shouted at was probably the least worst option. Standing outside the HT's office with every passing member of staff asking why you were there whilst wondering if you really were going to be rapped across the knuckles with the cane was far worse. You wouldn't have told your parents about either punishment either for fear of further punishment at home!

I was never screamed and shouted at in school and that was 30 years ago. I only once remember a head teacher being horrible to me when I was 6 as I kindly held the door open for some less able children and he had a go at me then shamed me in assembly for not listening. Absolutely vile man whose own children were horribly behaved.

However if my kids teachers shouted at them I would want to know what they had done to warrant that action and deal with there behaviour first.

I disagree that its disproportionately terrifying to a child.

Adults shouting because 'they're angry or passionate' are not in control of their behaviour and that's frightening to anyone.

Unless you're shouting to stop an imminent danger or to get help for an imminent danger, shouting adults need to get a grip. They know their shouting intimidates and frightens and use it to shut people down or scare people into submission.

It is not acceptable behaviour.

😆😆😆

I think OP needs to spend a week in a high school or in fact any school and check out the behaviour that might lead to someone raising their voice.I honestly think cctv could be brought in to a classroom so parents can see their children and the way some of them talk and behave and yet the parent will absolutely never believe their child could be rude/abusive/violent. Hats off to teachers! From someone whose also worked with and cared for some very ‘challenging’ children.

What nonsense that adults have lost control when they shout if angry or passionate

there may be time when this is the case but often it’s a form of communication and an expression of emotion

many cultures shouting is quite normal way to interact have all these people lost control

Imagine a child who's been asked repeatedly to be quiet and received various sanctions throughout the term.

Your child is in year 11, and is falling behind because of the constant disruption. Would you like the teacher to raise her voice or "allow that student their point of view".

Also, can we stop with the workplace analogy. Schools aren't the 'workplace'. Children get away with behaviour that would see them escorted immediately from a place of employment.

Never got shouted at by teachers - though do remember one board rubber throwing incident - but I worked for some pretty shouty bosses in the 90s/00s. Things have definitely changed for the better. I expect you need better behaviour management techniques to be a teacher now - just as parents do now that you can’t hold the threat of shouting/hitting them as was often the case in the 70s.

I've often thought about sending an anon letter to my old art teacher who would bellow and scream, he would turn purple and veins sticking out etc... never seen someone so angry and it would be over something pathetic like pencil sharpening's going onto the floor. I wanted to ask him if he ever thought about how it would make the students, who may have experienced abuse in the home, feel. I wanted to make him realise there are people who still feel small years later when they think about these interactions, hopefully pushing him to regret.

He screamed at me once for ripping up an old bit of paper because he thought i was ripping up a letter home up. He reduced me to uncontrollable sobbing tears for how close he got, how embarrassed and small he made me feel in front of a assembly full of children. When I proved it wasn't the letter he continued to scream, like he couldn't get himself to stop. Mega anger issues.

A boss would never be allowed to carry on that way, so why should teachers?!