to try and explain why nursery fees are so high

[SunsetCurtain]

I opened a nursery two years ago, in an area that desperately needed one. It was all over the local papers at the time about the local childcare crisis, and families were having to relocate etc. I thought I was doing a nice thing.

Since I've opened, I get weekly - sometimes daily - criticism and occasionally abuse about the "extortionate" fees we charge. I've been called a filthy capitalist, a con-artist and endure many, many comments about "printing money" etc.

I cannot comment IRL, I'm in a closed community that would deliberately misunderstand and I'd get even more flack. So please allow me my vent.

Childcare ratios are as follows:
For every 3 children under 2 years old, we require 1 staff member.
2 - 3 year olds is 4 children to 1 staff.
Over 3s is 8 children to 1 staff.

50% of staff must be qualified at all times - that's a Level 3 childcare diploma or higher, which is typically 2 years of college study. I've done it myself very recently and whilst it isn't "hard", it is extraordinarily detailed, long and - frankly - dull.

I pay our Manager £13.50ph, Deputy £13.00ph and all other staff £12.50ph. Excluding employer's contributions. We pay well for the industry, which is typically minimum wage (£10.42ph) - our salaries are reflective of our less than popular area.

All staff are legally obligated to attend a 2 hour long training session run by the local council 4 times a year, with our SENCO and DSL staff required to attend additional specialised sessions again. It is expected - at a legislative level - that each staff member does an additional 20+ hours of CPD a year.
It is also mandatory to have a monthly staff meeting (so add 1 hour extra per staff member each month), and a monthly supervision meeting per staff member (so 2 hours for Manager + staff member).

We obviously have to pay staff to open the nursery 30 minutes before children arrive, and they stay for roughly 1 hour after children have left to complete paperwork, clean and lay out activities for the following day.

The Manager needs 10+ hours a week on top of the time she spends with children for more paperwork than God himself needs to complete. She only gets away with 10 hours a week because I do the majority of the heavy stuff, for free.

I have calculated, roughly, that for every hour a child is in the nursery - it "costs" us 1.4 hours of labour, when including the above.

A minimum of 2 staff must be on site at all times, meaning that the staffing cost per hour is at a minimum of £35 per childcare hour (taking into consideration the training etc.)

If those 2 staff are taking Under 2s (2 staff = 6 babies) - that brings the cost per baby to £5.83ph
2 - 3 year olds would be £4.38ph
Over 3s would be £2.19ph

This is, of course, assuming that there are the maximum number of children per staff member - which is rarely the case.

This does not include - surplus staff for illness, lunches, outings and annual leave.
Overhead costs such as electricity (for us this is roughly £400 a month in Summer), rent and business rates.

I don't really know what I'm trying to achieve here but honestly, I'm going insane. All I seem to see online is people complaining about the cost of childcare, and I know that it is often directed at the gov, but it's also often directed at Nursery owners and I really don't think people have sat down and looked at the maths.

Setting up this nursery cost £75k, and I was doing it on a tight budget with family doing a lot of the renovation.
I have never drawn a salary, and in fact subsidise it by several thousand a month with a full time job.
(Yes, I'm considering closing it - but I know it will make me even less popular in town).

Rant over. Congrats if you've read all the way though <3

@NurseryNurse10 I totally agree, the ratio increase proposed is The Tory Government trying to placate parents with young children as a voting tactic.

Where do The Government think the extra staff are going to come from to implement their childcare strategy for free hours for under 3s ? The sector cannot recruit qualified (L3) and above staff now.

It also comes from the outdated, but still widely perceived idea by many that all staff who work in nurseries do all day is play and that any one can do the job!

Until this attitude changes and money is properly invested in early years then things won't ever change and many more much needed nurseries will close as a result.

As to the poster, who expects the nursery team to be cleaners and keep an eye on the children at the same time. Have you ever tried to do this?

On a purely business/ financial level I can see this makes sense, but practically it does not work you cannot clean and supervise young children properly at the same time.

Cleaning the nursery at the end of a (long) day is not the responsibility of the nursery staff team. It builds resentment, which isn't good for retaining employees and demeans the role of Early Years Educators and Early Years Teachers.

Many independent and small chain nurseries, do try to get staff to clean during the last hour or so to save costs. It is not on .
Would you clean for the last hour of the day in your job?

Personally I would advise anyone in early years, who is expected to clean the nursery as part of the role to not touch the nursery with a barge pole.

There is a big, big difference between tidying activities and toys during the day alongside the children, wiping surfaces after eating and playing and taking out a nappy bin or odd bag of rubbish all acceptable tasks, but a through clean of the nursery absolutely not!

@sadlittlelifejane by doing what I'm doing this lowers our income as I'm working 30 hours (x2 13 hr shifts one week and x3 13 hr shifts the week after), cover night shifts and run on very little sleep sometimes. Everyone has to compromise when you have children. My husband can't go for promotions etc due to needing to be flexible and not work away. Same as me, I can't move jobs due to this.
Or...... not complain to nursery providers re the prices they charge for childcare when it's not their fault and they need to provide a service.

@sadlittlelifejane also by more subsidising by government you will have to pay more tax.

OK but many many people can't work night shifts? Then what do they do? Are you saying there should be a whole cohort of people who can't have kids because their jobs don't offer flexibility? Who then does those jobs?

If you read my post, you would have seen me say they are taking it out on the wrong people. They are still reasonable for being annoyed at this huge extra bill. Unless you are a "only the wealthy should have kids" type person"...

Ah yes, this argument. I wouldn't resent that if we then had an early years/emergency services/health care system that was functional. Seems they are more interested in spending our money elsewhere

I understand why the costs are what they are and I think the pay should be much higher but I couldn't afford nursery for mine. I am incredibly lucky I had two days of family childcare to allow me to work two days a week but any more than that and I would have ended up out of pocket, nursery is particularly expensive where I live.

@sadlittlelifejane both people go part time? Both people change jobs? Or pay for nursery?
Having a child is a life choice....lives have to change, compromises/sacrifices have to be made.... nurseries need to be paid.

This was just an example of what we have done as a family as we can't afford nursery fees. Bog standard family, who had to figure this out prior to ttc as this goes beyond pre 3 year old children as they get 13 weeks holiday from school each year.

@sadlittlelifejane the tax thing... yep... we can't choose where the government spend it.

At the nursery I do work at, workers are expected to mop all the floors with bleach, deep clean nappy areas, all on top of a 10 hour shift. Then management wonder why people leave.
I remember a thread recently where a parent said she was worried as there were not enough qualified workers in the baby room her daughter was in. Many posters came on and said things along the lines of 'Well, so what? Even if they are not qualified, it doesn't mean they aren't great and why does it matter anyway?" They had no idea that it's illegal to operate a room without the legal ratio of qualified staff which is a level 3 and then 50% at level 2. They assumed anyone could do the job. I think many of them felt very silly afterwards when it was explained to them.
I can see why level 3 workers are hard to come by. It often is a thankless role and so physically and mentally demanding. Not to mention the super long hours, out of work meetings and low pay.

Cheapest?

You will be paying that "non working family member" the min age which will cost your childcare at least £500 per week.

Your post is really dum.

Childcare is a tough job , I find it hard looking after my two year old sometimes, let alone if I had to work in a nursery full of them !

The responsibility of looking after other people kids is one thing, providing a quality service that’s checked and audited is another.

If anyone thinks it’s all about painting and singing nursery rhymes, well tell them to go and do the job and see..

OP you’re providing a vital service I hope it worked out. I don’t think your costs are expensive, I guess you just need to look at the books again and see where you can save money.

I do understand that taking paid hours away from existing staff would be difficult though, maybe there’s other ways ?

I just want to say thank you for doing what you do. My child's nursery fees are very high, but I know that the staff aren't paid nearly enough for not only their hard work, training and efforts, but also the love and care they show my child. I know she is safe and well looked after, and there really is no price for that. The fees take up around 80% of my salary, but I choose to work to try and get a career back on track, and I couldn't do that without the absolute trust in the people I ask to care for my little one. So thank you, your work is hard, non stop and relentless, but what you do is invaluable to some families like mine.

This.
Im in Australia and nurseries are having to stop care for some of the kids due to no staff. The conditions and pay are terrible, no one wants to work in child care.
With the cost of living no one can afford to live on the pathetic pay. the course to study child care is now free in the hope it attracts more staff, but once they have actually worked there I imagine they will leave. Nurseries won’t exist if something doesn’t change.

@AuntieHippy I stayed home to care for my kids. I worked in child care before kids, and ironically couldn’t afford to pay for childcare for my own. In Australia the quality of nurseries is a lot lower, until a few years ago we had some of the worst conditions in the developed world (it might still be I don’t know). I didn’t want to send my kids to one. What you suggest sounds lovely in a perfect world. But There is no way I would look after someone else’s kids, even if that meant I could work too without paying childcare fees. If I had to work I would pay the fees rather than have other kids in my house.

@SunsetCurtain You should sell your nursery to a chain. It’s not worth the stress if you aren’t making money.

What's stopping prospective parents from planning and saving in advance to cover childcare costs, as one would for any large voluntary expense??

Why should fellow taxpayers get stuck with the costs?

Plan, prepare and save. Fund your own lifestyle choices. And hold out for a decent co-parent.

Why can't people who want children plan for these obvious and well-known expenses, before choosing to conceive a new human being?

Because they’re already saving desperately for things like housing, the cost of which has gone through the roof?
Because there is a time limit on fertility and people have to have kids while they are still able to?

I’ve been so grateful for our nursery. The fees have been extortionate but it is exceptionally well managed with low turnover. My daughter is about to go to school and since she left the baby room she has had the same core members of staff who she lines. It sounds like your parents are not treating you well and I’m shocked a competitor has been publicly slagging you off. Presumably many of the parents would be screwed if you folded. The ratio thing makes me so angry. That was Liz Truss’ big thing and we know how good she is at listening and taking sensible decisions…

Because while we don't want overpopulation we also need a certain amount of children ... To be future taxpayers.
Also a lot of people choose the children and give up work. Trained professionals that we need like healthcare workers.

Personally I don't think 24 hour childcare is the solution, I think BOTH parents going PT is better. Even 4 days a week, that leaves just 3 needing nursery.

Men requesting PT is still not as socially accepted and we are still geared towards one FT and one very PT

How are they had?