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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to try and explain why nursery fees are so high

173 replies

SunsetCurtain · 11/07/2023 20:43

I opened a nursery two years ago, in an area that desperately needed one. It was all over the local papers at the time about the local childcare crisis, and families were having to relocate etc. I thought I was doing a nice thing.

Since I've opened, I get weekly - sometimes daily - criticism and occasionally abuse about the "extortionate" fees we charge. I've been called a filthy capitalist, a con-artist and endure many, many comments about "printing money" etc.

I cannot comment IRL, I'm in a closed community that would deliberately misunderstand and I'd get even more flack. So please allow me my vent.

Childcare ratios are as follows:
For every 3 children under 2 years old, we require 1 staff member.
2 - 3 year olds is 4 children to 1 staff.
Over 3s is 8 children to 1 staff.

50% of staff must be qualified at all times - that's a Level 3 childcare diploma or higher, which is typically 2 years of college study. I've done it myself very recently and whilst it isn't "hard", it is extraordinarily detailed, long and - frankly - dull.

I pay our Manager £13.50ph, Deputy £13.00ph and all other staff £12.50ph. Excluding employer's contributions. We pay well for the industry, which is typically minimum wage (£10.42ph) - our salaries are reflective of our less than popular area.

All staff are legally obligated to attend a 2 hour long training session run by the local council 4 times a year, with our SENCO and DSL staff required to attend additional specialised sessions again. It is expected - at a legislative level - that each staff member does an additional 20+ hours of CPD a year.
It is also mandatory to have a monthly staff meeting (so add 1 hour extra per staff member each month), and a monthly supervision meeting per staff member (so 2 hours for Manager + staff member).

We obviously have to pay staff to open the nursery 30 minutes before children arrive, and they stay for roughly 1 hour after children have left to complete paperwork, clean and lay out activities for the following day.

The Manager needs 10+ hours a week on top of the time she spends with children for more paperwork than God himself needs to complete. She only gets away with 10 hours a week because I do the majority of the heavy stuff, for free.

I have calculated, roughly, that for every hour a child is in the nursery - it "costs" us 1.4 hours of labour, when including the above.

A minimum of 2 staff must be on site at all times, meaning that the staffing cost per hour is at a minimum of £35 per childcare hour (taking into consideration the training etc.)

If those 2 staff are taking Under 2s (2 staff = 6 babies) - that brings the cost per baby to £5.83ph
2 - 3 year olds would be £4.38ph
Over 3s would be £2.19ph

This is, of course, assuming that there are the maximum number of children per staff member - which is rarely the case.

This does not include - surplus staff for illness, lunches, outings and annual leave.
Overhead costs such as electricity (for us this is roughly £400 a month in Summer), rent and business rates.

I don't really know what I'm trying to achieve here but honestly, I'm going insane. All I seem to see online is people complaining about the cost of childcare, and I know that it is often directed at the gov, but it's also often directed at Nursery owners and I really don't think people have sat down and looked at the maths.

Setting up this nursery cost £75k, and I was doing it on a tight budget with family doing a lot of the renovation.
I have never drawn a salary, and in fact subsidise it by several thousand a month with a full time job.
(Yes, I'm considering closing it - but I know it will make me even less popular in town).

Rant over. Congrats if you've read all the way though <3

OP posts:
ButterCrackers · 11/07/2023 23:34

Childcare is always at low cost compared to the value it has and the huge responsibility of looking after children. People want something for nothing because they think it’s just singing nursery rhymes all the day. All costs are difficult to manage at the moment but why should you be working but not covering your expenses? Perhaps a note to all parents explaining how much time and energy you are all putting in for their kids.

TheHateIsNotGood · 11/07/2023 23:48

I really don't have any solution - I look back horrified that I started sending ds to a childminder at 5 weeks old, FT by the time he was 6mths. Over 20 years ago mind and most advised don't do it, give up your work and studies and go on benefits. You're on your own with no support. No Mat Package and No Partner.

Of course I didn't listen, I was 40 and truly believed that society and the law had moved on by 2001. I worked, studied, cared, cleaned, cooked and hardly slept at all for years on end. Was it worth it? Was it fuck.

Maybe 20 years later the possibility for it to be worth it might be there but I can't see it - the childcare providers aren't paid enough, the parents can't afford to pay more, kids get sick, parents get sick, it's very knackering, schools operate to non-working hours, etc, etc, etc.

If only a family home could be run on 50-55 hrs of work a week, then that could be sustainably split within the ideal 2 parent family, with economic mechanisms in place for 1 parent families.

TomorrowToday · 11/07/2023 23:49

AndIKnewYouMeantIt · 11/07/2023 21:06

I've been paying £5 an hour since 2019. They are finally going up to £6 an hour in September but DS will be starting school. I have never understood how they can do what they have done for my DS for that (food is included). It's a family business though - mum, dad and 2 daughters.

I went to DS's nursery tonight for their leavers art exhibition. It was so good, and so creative, and there were photos everywhere of him having the best time. I cried when he'd gone to bed.

From home or a business?

TomorrowToday · 11/07/2023 23:50

Delatron · 11/07/2023 21:18

It’s so much cheaper in other countries. So all their governments just subside the sector heavily? Why doesn’t ours?

I used to pay £1900 a month for 2 kids. It was unsustainable and had to give up my job and retrain. What a shame we can’t get this right in our country.

Retrain as what?

TomorrowToday · 11/07/2023 23:51

ChampagneLassie · 11/07/2023 21:20

Honestly this doesn’t sound like a business. Now you know the costs, put up your rates. We went with the most expensive nursery in our area which newly opened and it’s sort of reassuringly expensive and it’s fully booked within a year of opening. It’s a chain N Club and they’ve hit on that many people value their kids and want quality not cheap

And you are judging quality by what?

TomorrowToday · 11/07/2023 23:52

SBAM · 11/07/2023 21:50

Nursery is expensive- it should be! I want my children looked after in a safe, enriching environment with good resources, and nice fresh food, by someone who is appropriately qualified, who cares about their job and the children and is paid well for doing it. And that costs money.
I don’t think all of that cost should be borne by the parents, especially not if the expectation is that women return to work after 9 months when statutory maternity pay stops. The government need to increase the money they provide to nurseries and stop the ‘free hours’ promises (not the money, just the wording) - Call them subsidies, and let the nurseries charge the top ups they need to charge to make it viable.

Paid well? They get Min wage.

UsingChangeofName · 11/07/2023 23:57

..... and those calculations don't even take into account the additional staff needed to support the hugely increasing numbers of children with really significant needs that Nurseries are doing their best to support.

TheHateIsNotGood · 12/07/2023 00:26

All I remember is pretty much worshipping the ground ds's childminders' walked upon....that perspective only began to change in the latter part of Y1, with a change of school.

All I know is that the people that take care of our babies and toddlers deserve the greatest of respect and should be paid well for doing so. There is no way that this can be done by expecting all parents to pay 100% - unless we want 'baby farms' with no individualized care.

How can a NMW worker pay more than their wage for childcare and how can a childcare provider care for their child for NMW or less? Now that is the question.

sashh · 12/07/2023 00:57

SBAM · 11/07/2023 21:50

Nursery is expensive- it should be! I want my children looked after in a safe, enriching environment with good resources, and nice fresh food, by someone who is appropriately qualified, who cares about their job and the children and is paid well for doing it. And that costs money.
I don’t think all of that cost should be borne by the parents, especially not if the expectation is that women return to work after 9 months when statutory maternity pay stops. The government need to increase the money they provide to nurseries and stop the ‘free hours’ promises (not the money, just the wording) - Call them subsidies, and let the nurseries charge the top ups they need to charge to make it viable.

This ^

All children deserve a good start in life and often that is a nursery.

The government should see all education as an investment in the future of the country.

GoblinAeroplane · 12/07/2023 02:30

Thesenderofthiscard · 11/07/2023 21:12

We know why they’re high. Most western governments subsidise the fees, ours is shite.

I live in the Netherlands and it's means tested here. You pay the full amount and the tax office gives you an amount back each month depending on your salaries.

We're high earners so get nothing back - we pay 12 Eur per hour, full days only (11 hour days). Others on lower incomes would pay the 12 Eur but get a portion back.

My 3rd child is now at daycare and has they same key worker my eldest had 7 years ago, so staff turnover is low and the daycare is education based, not just babysitting - I've been amazed and some of the stuff my kids have come home with, it's great.

It's a shame it's not more subsidized and recognized in the UK as the vital service it is. I'm sorry you're getting attacked for costs OP, I hope you find a way to keep it going. Good luck.

coxesorangepippin · 12/07/2023 02:33

You need government subsidies

Pawpatrolsucks · 12/07/2023 03:01

NurseryNurse10 · 11/07/2023 23:11

People who say the ratios should be higher make me roll my eyes.
Please, volunteer to do some shifts on a 1/4 ratio with 2 year olds, some of whom are SEN, do that 8-6 everyday, then we can talk about extending the ratios....

I worked in a nursery that the ratios were 1/5 in under 2s, 1/8 toddlers 1/10 in the pre school. It was horrible. You usually had someone cleaning or doing paperwork in that ratio too.

Pawpatrolsucks · 12/07/2023 03:03

I would print your op and leave it in where parents sign in.

BeverlyBrook · 12/07/2023 04:12

ChineseFakeaway · 11/07/2023 20:51

People expect women to provide free childcare and don’t consider it “work”, so when faced with the true monetary cost they are incredulous and angry.

This is very true

MariaVT65 · 12/07/2023 04:53

Wenfy · 11/07/2023 21:31

My son’s nursery has stopped offering less than full time (9-5) and in her words it’s worked to cut out the riff raff. She makes no allowances for any parent who wants totally ‘free’ childcare - it’s full time or nothing.

That’s terrible. That would price a lot of people out having more than 1 child. Also a shame for those who have paid for all hours for a while up until the kid turns 3.

Baisksomwms · 12/07/2023 05:03

NurseryNurse10 · 11/07/2023 23:11

People who say the ratios should be higher make me roll my eyes.
Please, volunteer to do some shifts on a 1/4 ratio with 2 year olds, some of whom are SEN, do that 8-6 everyday, then we can talk about extending the ratios....

Well the other countries with subsidised childcare ...

Germany:.
https://eurydice.eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-education-systems/germany/organisation-centre-based-ecec

Doesn't seem to be as small.

Organisation of centre-based ECEC

Admission Requirements and Choice of ECEC institution There are no admission requirements for a child to be admitted to a day-care centre.  Parents are free to choose the facility. There is no entitlement to admission to a particular day-care centre, h...

https://eurydice.eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-education-systems/germany/organisation-centre-based-ecec

Made4Sunshine · 12/07/2023 05:06

I think nursery staff pay rates are poor.
In some parts of the world , the government heavily subsidises or provides free childcare for working parents and staff have pay partity with primary and secondary teachers

I don't expect the UK can afford this because they prefer to pay people to be idle rather than provide incentives to be productive.
Free 3yrs + hours isn't free childcare if you need to go back to work when the baby is an infant.

Baisksomwms · 12/07/2023 05:09

BeverlyBrook · 12/07/2023 04:12

This is very true

While it's true that domestic labour is also undervalued , a professional setting has to follow much higher standards.
Like a PP mentioning 'healthy, fresh foods'. Faced with a fussy toddler the vast majority of parents will give in and feed them beige food, at least some of the time.
But a nursery can't do that.

The other question is how many people actually earn enough, and have 'careers', making it worthwhile?

If nursery staff get paid minimum wage, and with all the additions on top, making it more than the take home pay of a PARENT (not necessarily mother!) on slightly above minimum wage.

Better for the parent to stay home, have the main earner pay into a private pension or similar. Of course the lower earner is usually the woman

Also I'm not saying people should have to do this , or that we should not have childcare subsidies like other developed countries but childcare doesn't necessarily mean no earnings. Weekends or evenings shift work for example. The problem here is the number of lazy arse men who refuse to pull their weight.

Baisksomwms · 12/07/2023 05:10

Made4Sunshine · 12/07/2023 05:06

I think nursery staff pay rates are poor.
In some parts of the world , the government heavily subsidises or provides free childcare for working parents and staff have pay partity with primary and secondary teachers

I don't expect the UK can afford this because they prefer to pay people to be idle rather than provide incentives to be productive.
Free 3yrs + hours isn't free childcare if you need to go back to work when the baby is an infant.

That too. With benefits sometimes there is little point in working.

Flatandhappy · 12/07/2023 05:22

I would send an e-mail/letter to each parent giving a précis of what you wrote. Let them know that you have to adhere to ratios, comply with various legal requirements to operate as an childcare setting and point out that you aim to treat your staff well to ensure you can hire the best possible people to look after THEIR children. Obviously they should already know this but tbh some people are just not that bright! I would also briefly and factually express your disappointment that you felt you needed to send a letter because you are getting abuse from people who misunderstand how a childcare centre works. Finally I would let your parents know that the centre will not be able to continue operating if people continue to heave in a negative way towards you. People love to grumble but most working parents would be screwed if their childcare centre shut.

bugaboo218 · 12/07/2023 05:24

The proposed increase in ratios for 2-3 years olds is utter madness. Those who support the increase in ratios for cheaper childcare costs should volunteer in a nursery with two year olds for a week 07:30-18:30 every day! I am pretty sure after a week in nursery with 2-3 year olds they'd change their mind pdq!

The ratios should de-crease in my opinion if we really want a high quality early years sector!

All nurseries (and child minders) are required to follow The EYFS regardless of that being a school nursery, part of a large chain or an independent nursery - the quality of the provision comes from having a highly qualified and motivated nursery team and again that costs money.

In an ideal world pre school in any private nursery setting should be led by a fully qualified L6 (degree level) person with QTS, EYT, EYPS sadly in many nurseries it isn't because of the costs. I have seen qualified EY Teachers leave the sector and who can blame them when they are getting little over minimum wage for a long, long day and are at a huge disadvantage financially and in terms of career progression with their peers who work in nursery or reception in (maintained state) schools!

Daffodilwoman · 12/07/2023 05:27

I agree with everything that’s been said.
Peopke moan about roles which are traditionally done by women, they seem to expect women to work for free. Just look at how much people get riled over paying bakers for a bespoke cake. Compare that to paying a car mechanic say £30 an hour. Or a plumber £50 an hour.
The government don’t want to subsidise childcare because it’s seen as a problem for women. They have had 12 years to sort this out but prefer to pay people to sit on their arse all day and get free benefits.

Caspianberg · 12/07/2023 05:40

I think a slight increase in ratios is fine tbh.
We live in Austria. It’s completely free now for 7-12am childcare in the region we live in, and €110 a month for full time 7-5pm ( including all meals).

Ds is in the 18month-3 year old group which is 3 teacher to up to 20 children ie 6-7 children per adult.
The 3-6 year old groups are 2 teachers to 20 children ie 10 children per adult ratio

The nursery has children coming and going at all times of day as no fixed drop off or collection time. It’s always seems super calm, and with those ratios Ds is thriving. They get taken outside to the woods for forest school, and other activities regularly with same ratios.

AndIKnewYouMeantIt · 12/07/2023 06:01

TomorrowToday · 11/07/2023 23:49

From home or a business?

What?

It's a nursery, as I said. Probably about 70 kids total.

wearesuceeding · 12/07/2023 06:06

Ours has just announced they are increasing 11% in September.

Not sure how we will manage it.