Is the UK beyond repair?

[Brrrrrrrrrrrr]

I’m sure plenty will come along to say I’m BU but for the past few weeks I’ve really started to question where this country and our society is heading and whether or not things are ever going to get better and when that might be.

We have economic chaos driven by high inflation, increasing interest rates and a total lack of urgency by anyone in charge to seemingly do anything about it. We have a government in power that seem to have nothing but contempt for anyone that doesn’t resemble their backers, ministers openly mocking critics on social media and a PM who can not remember if he may or may not have had something to do with benefiting from £5 million of Russian money. What on Earth have we become?

Our Health service is being systematically picked apart and left to decay away much to the detriment of those who rely on it or who cannot afford Private healthcare. We have Medical professionals striking because they are underpaid again to the detriment of those who rely on said services, wait lists are through the roof and the levels of care being received are understandably inadequate.

The education sector is a ticking time bomb because teachers are seeing the demands of their roles increase, funding cuts, the behaviour of the pupils start to become impossible to manage and the prospect of an easier life switching to another career too hard to resist.

Food bank usage is at an all time high, not just by those in charge who don’t know poverty but working professionals who can not afford to feed their families because the cost of living has zapped every last penny from them. The reality on the streets of real life Is so far detached from that seen on social media that it’s like looking at a different planet.

It just feels bleak and I don’t see how things are going to change, I’m often an optimist but this is stretching any semblance of light in the tunnel. Anyone else? Is this the type of world you want your children to live in? Surely they deserve better? How can this be fixed?

I appreciate the effort ;

Economic illiteracy is an issue

In Thatcher's day, VAT was a lower rate, and some of the other taxes/duties didn't even exist, stamp duty on homes was less, no insurance premium tax, no landfill taxes, and far cheaper council tax, so not a valid comparison.

The £100k problem was caused by political decisions - it never used to be a problem, so it can easily be solved without "engineering an entire tax system" by reversing the relative recent changes that caused it, affecting only those people!

As for plentiful workers earning that level, nope. The likes of doctors and dentists are deliberately working fewer hours (refusing extra shifts etc) to stay under the £100k, and others are shovelling money into pensions to get their taxable income under £100k. There are relatively few people "happily" earning £110k, paying 62% tax/NIC plus employee pension and student loan deductions, and having given up their free childcare. Those who get into that position quickly change their circumstances once they realise!

In Thatcher's day, VAT was a lower rate, and some of the other taxes/duties didn't even exist, stamp duty on homes was less, no insurance premium tax, no landfill taxes, and far cheaper council tax, so not a valid comparison.

VAT was 15%. You’re really struggling if you’re going to cite discretionary taxes like stamp duty paid two or three times in a life time. Council tax didn’t exist - remember poll tax? So unpopular it brought Thatcher down.

The small number of £100k earners with children under school age have the common sense to recognise that it’s a temporary situation.

I'm sorry I'm obviously missed out on some economics lessons somewhere. I'm genuinely interested but it's not my area of specialization and I'm not in that earnings situation.

I do feel political parties are too short-term and not systematic enough in their solutions. I don't know what I would suggest because it's not a simple answer.

I agree about raising productivity but what does that look like? Manufacturing or financial services?

I've written posts about it today already, how you change the tax regime to support growth and small businesses, link up education with high quality technical apprenticeships in small- and medium- sized companies to fill skills shortages, lower corporation tax to encourage investment and reinvestment and growth and provide better investment incentives with capital allowances etc in key growth sectors to create skills hubs in specific areas and invest in the infrastructure for that but raise taxes on people extracting money from businesses e.g. capital gains tax. Rejoin the SM and CU so that expensive trade barriers are removed, we might then not have an 8% trade deficit, GBP value might recover a bit towards where it was before the 2016 insanity, therefore lower inflation and lower interest rates therefore possible for people to obtain finance to start a business without it almost certainly making a real-terms loss. Etc.

It's difficult to know what to make of your posts at this point unless perhaps that you are so blinded by your ideology that it's given you cataracts and you can no longer read properly.

100% is, especially on MN. Then again, the country as a whole - Brexit proves that.

That’s what I love about the right - condescension and rudeness, you can always rely on it. It’s an absolute pain when people successfully critique your argument, isn’t it? Particularly when you believe you know it all and nobody else could possibly be as intelligent and knowledgeable as you.

Umm - you didn’t successfully critique it though. It just showed economic illiteracy. What they have said is proven.

I think it is. I just can't see how this can be turned around.

I rest my case 🤷‍♀️

Successfully critiqued? You are embarrassing yourself now.

That’s what I love about the right - condescension and rudeness, you can always rely on it. It’s an absolute pain when people successfully critique your argument, isn’t it? Particularly when you believe you know it all and nobody else could possibly be as intelligent and knowledgeable as you.

Great. Except I'm not "the right". I don't support any political party and never have done. I'm a pragmatist, a realist and an economist. I've lived in absolute poverty and not. You want to label everyone to fit into your ideology as friend or foe instead of have a rational discussion about data and facts. Fine. But don't project your worldview onto other people please.

You haven't "critiqued" anything, you have spouted tired old tropes that aren't backed up by the data from the UK or internationally. And no, there are plenty of people far more knowledgeable and intelligent than me. It's just a shame that none of them are part of the Government or the opposition. Or indeed that we can't raise the level of knowledge and intelligence and rational thought to an acceptable level amongst enough of the electorate to demand changes that will actually work. Evidence-based policies from those pesky experts.

Tbh you need to stop the condescension in your posts, otherwise they are just hot air.

All your ideas take money first, then investment and staff.. & the myth of low CT is something you and others seem unable to let go off... it wont work, it doesn't work, investment decisions over 10 or 20 years are not made on short term tax rates.

My partner works in FE, students drop out to take MW jobs to support family members who are awaiting nhs treatment, poor english and maths skills because there aren't enough skilled teachers in these subjects.

My DD was NHS, now in Australia, Manley, loves its better pay, lower strss and hours.... nhs is losing staff at an unsustainable rate, there is no plan B .. just from both parties "we wont pay more" no Dr's, no NHS, no Foreign investment...

...and no one cares... because those in power or wish to be, will use BUPA etc.

Weird though how the right are now up in arms for change when its primarily Austerity that has caused the vast majority of the UKs problems, inc Brexit & its their vote that got us all of this.

Tbh you need to stop the condescension in your posts, otherwise they are just hot air.

So proposing proven economic models from elsewhere and evidence-based policy, concrete policy suggestions that would actually improve things, is "condescension and hot air"?

All your ideas take money first, then investment and staff.

God. YES, of course the money has to come first. How do you think it will be paid for otherwise?

That's the whole point! We've run the place into the ground and maxed out the credit card and nobody will lend to us anymore except at punitive interest rates. So if you want things to improve the country has to generate more money. Our GDP per capita is falling way behind what used to be comparable nations. The only way to improve living standards (salaries and public services) is to improve productivity and you can't do that in an environment where it's impossible to raise finance to start a business and make a profit, where anybody who establishes a successful career gets slammed with punitive tax rates, you can't fund a country with an 8% trade deficit with no coherent plan to raise productivity or reduce trade barriers to address this when a lot of your essential goods are imported, your currency has plummeted in value, inflation is running at nearly 10% so any investment would likely be loss-making and even existing companies will go bust because they can't refinance at the hugely inflated interest rates. And stating these basic facts is "condescending"?

How do you want the services to be funded then? How do you propose to sustainably raise everyone's salaries in real terms?

No wonder it is all such a mess. Even when someone goes to these pains to explain what needs changing and why, this is the reaction. I give up.

Weird though how the right are now up in arms for change when its primarily Austerity that has caused the vast majority of the UKs problems, inc Brexit & its their vote that got us all of this

And why on Earth post this to me? I am not "the right", I specifically posted earlier that the Government should have borrowed heavily to invest in education and infrastructure after the GFC when it could borrow at negative interest rates so ai clearly didn't support austerity, and I've been very clear I don't support Brexit, repeatedly.

It is literally impossible to have a discussion with these types of people. On both sides, they chuck this nonsense about "the right" and "the left" around and it's all about their allegiance to political parties and some kind of bizarre blinkered belief system and there's no engagement whatsoever with rational argument, data, economics or actual policy proposals that would make any positive difference.

Thoroughly depressing and so childish.

Sorry, posted under another username but that was me again, obviously.

Honestly wish I'd never commented at all, waste of time.

Others found your posts informative, don’t sweat it.

It’s slim pickings on economic literacy on here so it’s a shame if you stop.

This. You’ll always get the same posters trotting out stuff which is irrelevant. Day in day out. It’s just background noise. People are getting the country they deserve. No more, no less.

Ignore the petty posters accusing you of condescension, especially those who have a history of it themselves on MN. I've appreciated your discussion and insight, and it's certainly not been a waste of your time. Also, I'm 'on the left' but I haven't seen you come across with ideological motives from either left or right. A lesson for others maybe...

Fully agree with you here. It feels like we are locked into this downward spiral right now, bad voting decisions leading to a dysfunctional country all the while we’re getting poorer and the big problems are being ignored.

The naïve part of the electorate are overly concerned about too many ‘immigrants’ without understanding the nuances behind that term and the necessity for them in order for the country to work properly. Meanwhile our education and health systems are in tatters, there is no solution in sight. The UK has dealt itself some pretty horrific blows by poor voting outcomes, self harm personified.

But thats the golden circle isn't it? to raise productivity, takes investment/skills etc all require money but as you say there isn't any money... we cannot borrow, apparently tax cannot be used either and so far you have not said where this money will come from to start the ball rolling? (i ve taken the time to re read your posts)

Personally, i believe we have to change the way we work first, dropping "red tape" that makes work overly long winded, we need to drop barriers to employment caused by the benefits system and we need to tax wealth at the same rates as income tax, the days of folk earning millions but paying CGT rates has to stop.

Plus if these are all tried and tested models, then all countries would be using them and we'd all be doing very well....

I fully support changes in tax/hmrc.. incredibly over complicated and negative... i also want the UK to return to the SM/CU but where we differ is i believe the only way to do this is to rejoin the EU, any other course will not work.

On condescension, go around calling people economic illiterates wins no arguments, esp on a forum where anyone can say they are x y or z.... or change their user name, in a thread, which now a deliberate choice...... it just makes this the whole point of your argument.

Absolutely. But is any other party fit to run the country either? No. Same shit different arseholes.