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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is the UK beyond repair?

349 replies

Brrrrrrrrrrrr · 06/07/2023 16:43

I’m sure plenty will come along to say I’m BU but for the past few weeks I’ve really started to question where this country and our society is heading and whether or not things are ever going to get better and when that might be.

We have economic chaos driven by high inflation, increasing interest rates and a total lack of urgency by anyone in charge to seemingly do anything about it. We have a government in power that seem to have nothing but contempt for anyone that doesn’t resemble their backers, ministers openly mocking critics on social media and a PM who can not remember if he may or may not have had something to do with benefiting from £5 million of Russian money. What on Earth have we become?

Our Health service is being systematically picked apart and left to decay away much to the detriment of those who rely on it or who cannot afford Private healthcare. We have Medical professionals striking because they are underpaid again to the detriment of those who rely on said services, wait lists are through the roof and the levels of care being received are understandably inadequate.

The education sector is a ticking time bomb because teachers are seeing the demands of their roles increase, funding cuts, the behaviour of the pupils start to become impossible to manage and the prospect of an easier life switching to another career too hard to resist.

Food bank usage is at an all time high, not just by those in charge who don’t know poverty but working professionals who can not afford to feed their families because the cost of living has zapped every last penny from them. The reality on the streets of real life Is so far detached from that seen on social media that it’s like looking at a different planet.

It just feels bleak and I don’t see how things are going to change, I’m often an optimist but this is stretching any semblance of light in the tunnel. Anyone else? Is this the type of world you want your children to live in? Surely they deserve better? How can this be fixed?

OP posts:
User135644 · 08/07/2023 11:35

Blossomtoes · 08/07/2023 00:11

Gladstone and the Pankhursts must be revolving in their graves.

Liberal Party achieved more than Labour (given it was the 1940s when Labour last achieved anything memorable). Labour basically ended them as a party of government and proceeded to let the Tories in more often while achieving less.

user1497207191 · 08/07/2023 12:07

SquirrelSoShiny · 07/07/2023 12:31

I really hope it's a good sign that behind the scenes he is actually doing the hard, grown up work of running the country, rather than frolicking about demanding publicity cookies like the floppy-haired narcissist before him.

No, it's simply that he doesn't give a toss about the voters, and is busy behind the scenes doing deals etc that will make his billionaire backers even richer. He doesn't care if the Tories win the next GE or not - he'll be off anyway as he'll have done his backers' bidding and they'll reward him handsomely.

After all, the Tory members didn't vote for Rishi when given the vote, and he only got in after Truss due to a back room stitch up where contenders were "persuaded" not to stand against him.

The sooner he's gone the better.

Not that I'm in favour of Labour/Starmer as I think they'd be a disaster! I can't believe we've come to the position of not having anyone decent to vote for at the next GE!

Blossomtoes · 08/07/2023 12:11

User135644 · 08/07/2023 11:35

Liberal Party achieved more than Labour (given it was the 1940s when Labour last achieved anything memorable). Labour basically ended them as a party of government and proceeded to let the Tories in more often while achieving less.

There hasn’t been a Liberal government since 1906 so the comparisons here are getting more and more ludicrous.

Blossomtoes · 08/07/2023 12:14

I can't believe we've come to the position of not having anyone decent to vote for at the next GE!

We’ve been there before - the choice between Johnson and Corbyn was like having to choose between Gonorrhea and Syphilis.

user1497207191 · 08/07/2023 12:14

purplehair1 · 08/07/2023 10:39

Sadly I think you are absolutely spot on. Can’t believe anyone voted for the Tories (or voted for Brexit) but honestly Keir Starmer is not the answer. I’m thinking of voting green at the next election as this government seem happy to let the rest of us burn while they quaff their champers in their air conditioned bunkers with their billionaire backers.

The hand-grenade that allowed both brexit and recent Tory GE wins was Corbyn!

If Labour had a more credible leader, we may still be in the EU and may have had a Labour Govt for the past few leaders.

No one knows if things would have been better, but Labour made a massive own goal by voting in Corbyn as leader and keeping him there when it became clear he was a vote loser!

Alyso · 08/07/2023 12:18

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

askmeonemoretime · 08/07/2023 12:22

Starmer is a centrist. Corbin was extreme left.
I think we need a centrist. He also seems extremely competent. We need someone competent for a change.

askmeonemoretime · 08/07/2023 12:24

And childcare vouchers was a major labour innovation.

orangeyeahthatsright · 08/07/2023 12:30

As someone who was around in the 80s, the fact that Corbyn is viewed as 'extreme left' just makes me laugh I'm afraid.

ColdMeg · 08/07/2023 12:38

Yes. The UK is beyond repair. We are going to have to start again from scratch almost, and I say that as an elected representative and someone who has worked in politics and governance for twenty-five years.

But the problem is not quite what you think.

Britain largely works off the back of an unpaid civic tier. This encapsulates everything from scout leaders to WI to parish and town councillors to political activists taking roles in associations and on committees to people sitting on representation boards to school governors to Rotary Clubs to Working Men's committees etc . . . it's huge.

Traditionally, these people then fed upwards into civic governance in some way. One of the key movements was that this tier provided a "pool" by which political groups or parties took candidates for local government or for roles within their party structure.

So what you would get is people with a lot of experience of running things, doing things, dealing with people, and who had solid connections to wider society in all its forms going into political representation. And these people would have a trade or a profession outside of that world as well.

This has all broken down. People are not interested in civic society anymore. British society and culture has been largely atomised, and with the financial demands of the modern world, people are too knackered to go out on a rainy Thursday night to sit in a church hall and talk about buying new swings for the play park.

So what you get instead is the people with "ulterior motives" getting candidacies: people whose focus isn't on good governance, it's being the big "I am", or being on telly, or acquiring power, or pushing a certain agenda -- the psychos really.

And the other problem is that the level of vitriol that elected representatives now get over very minor matters tends to put anyone other than the psychos off standing for election. Who wants that shit in their lives?

So we have ended up with a situation where our political system is now riddled with people that should be absolutely nowhere near it, not just because they are useless and dangerous, but they couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery if they tried -- and that goes for all the political parties, even my own.

Add to that the bizarre belief that, somehow, everything is eternal and will never fall apart or decay or decline, be it the built environment, or cultural beliefs, or institutions, no matter what shit you throw at them .... and now everything is falling apart, and people are shocked.

And then add to that, the fact that government is expected to solve a whole range of social and cultural problem, caused by the breakdown of society and the economic climate and post-industrialisation, and yeah . . . it's really bleak, folks.

It cannot be done. It just can't. We don't have the right people in the right places with the right tools. And even if we did, those people would be eviscerated by the media numpties who live in a la-la land where the only important thing is their cosy lives and them and their mates having top jobs.

It's a shit show. A total shit show.

askmeonemoretime · 08/07/2023 13:27

I used to be part of civic society doing a lot for free. I stopped during the pandemic because I felt like a mug. All these very rich people doing anything they can to make more money from our institutions, and here is me on the ground doing lots for free,

SunnyEgg · 08/07/2023 13:31

The R o I is a good example.

It is doing well. I haven’t followed it closely enough but somehow gov managed to get in power and slash corporation tax.

People voting didn’t mind the attractive tax system and now they are benefiting from that.

I can’t see we will do the same here. People can’t make the leap between lower tax for corporations and higher standard of living.

They can’t see that attracting wealth is beneficial.

More demand higher taxes of people and companies, both of which are mobile and then they get in a cycle of being poorer and a higher tax burden.

I can’t see any way around that atm

Whammyyammy · 08/07/2023 13:35

BMW6 · 06/07/2023 17:11

Well I'm sure Labour will win the next election by a landslide and all our troubles will be over.

Surely.

Most definitely. When labour get in house prices will fall, interest rates will fall, benefits will be increased to such a high level we won't need to work and we will al get a free golden egg laying goose....

askmeonemoretime · 08/07/2023 13:39

Why take the piss at improvements?
It won't be paradise, but having someone competent in government will be a change.

user1497207191 · 08/07/2023 13:44

@ColdMeg

I fully agree. Yes, indeed, it's people with ulterior motives that get into higher levels of politics rather than people who can do things for the common good, like it used to be. I remember when local councillors were a mix of "do gooders" and local business owners - it worked so much better as the business owners had the entreprenneurial spirit and the "volunteer" types could get things done in cheaper/efficient ways based on their experience of "shoe string" budgets.

I think the damage is from the "professional" politicians - i.e. those who've studied politics and/or economics at Uni, and gone straight into politics without much (if any) experience of the real world, just full if ideology and theory.

Another thing that is damaging is the that people use parish/local councils as a foundation with the aim of being chosen by their local part to go forward for choice as parliamentary candidate in national elections - they've no interest in the locality and are just going through the motions, with one eye on pleasing the local political party office, then when they're not selected, they either give it up straight away or keep plodding on (doing bare minimum for the residents) until the next election. Funny how these people never stay around once they realise they're not getting selected for GEs - we had one in our town, came from nowhere, then put herself out all over town, in local media, etc to get a town councillors job, and carried on playing the media, until she got selected and then elected as an MP. After one term, she lost the next election, and literally never seen again - so much for her claim of "civic duty" etc.

Fruttidelbosco · 08/07/2023 14:05

@ColdMeg spot on. In areas like school governance, we should be calling out self-interest and lack of expertise. Teachers do have a voice! and should be insisting that governors be held to account (as much as they and their headteachers are).

SaorAlba1 · 08/07/2023 15:19

SunnyEgg · 08/07/2023 13:31

The R o I is a good example.

It is doing well. I haven’t followed it closely enough but somehow gov managed to get in power and slash corporation tax.

People voting didn’t mind the attractive tax system and now they are benefiting from that.

I can’t see we will do the same here. People can’t make the leap between lower tax for corporations and higher standard of living.

They can’t see that attracting wealth is beneficial.

More demand higher taxes of people and companies, both of which are mobile and then they get in a cycle of being poorer and a higher tax burden.

I can’t see any way around that atm

India, Brazil, Japan, Australia, Germany, Mexico, Pakistan, New Zealand, South Korea, Canada, Netherlands, France, Spain, USA, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Sweden, Portugal, Norway, Turkey, Italy, plus many more all had higher corporation tax than the UK up until this year. In fact, everyone before France in the above list still do.

Corporation Tax isn't some magic pill that automatically means you'll get investment. Businesses / investors look at all manner of things when assessing a country, and while CT is a consideration, as part of the overall cost of doing business, it's not a priority consideration for most organisations.

Far more important are things like market potential, economic and political stability, governance and regulation, infrastructure, condition of the workforce (education and health), proximity of suppliers and customers, ease of moving goods / people, etc., etc.

The UK isn't particularly appealing on most of those anymore, partly due to the tories complete failure to invest in anything and mismanagement of the countrh, and partly due to the terminally stupid decision to become more isolationist when we have a service based economy.

SunnyEgg · 08/07/2023 15:22

SaorAlba1 · 08/07/2023 15:19

India, Brazil, Japan, Australia, Germany, Mexico, Pakistan, New Zealand, South Korea, Canada, Netherlands, France, Spain, USA, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Sweden, Portugal, Norway, Turkey, Italy, plus many more all had higher corporation tax than the UK up until this year. In fact, everyone before France in the above list still do.

Corporation Tax isn't some magic pill that automatically means you'll get investment. Businesses / investors look at all manner of things when assessing a country, and while CT is a consideration, as part of the overall cost of doing business, it's not a priority consideration for most organisations.

Far more important are things like market potential, economic and political stability, governance and regulation, infrastructure, condition of the workforce (education and health), proximity of suppliers and customers, ease of moving goods / people, etc., etc.

The UK isn't particularly appealing on most of those anymore, partly due to the tories complete failure to invest in anything and mismanagement of the countrh, and partly due to the terminally stupid decision to become more isolationist when we have a service based economy.

Not all countries do have lower corporation taxes but it has worked very well for the R o I

There are other ways to do well but they have managed to make it work for them.

user1497207191 · 08/07/2023 17:33

SunnyEgg · 08/07/2023 15:22

Not all countries do have lower corporation taxes but it has worked very well for the R o I

There are other ways to do well but they have managed to make it work for them.

Isle of man, Channel Islands and Gibraltar are regarded as tax havens, hence why they are so popular for the wealthy and are relatively rich countries. Despite what some lefties say, low taxes attract money and bring vitality to countries that would otherwise have little to offer in terms of economy.

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/07/2023 18:01

User135644 · 08/07/2023 11:35

Liberal Party achieved more than Labour (given it was the 1940s when Labour last achieved anything memorable). Labour basically ended them as a party of government and proceeded to let the Tories in more often while achieving less.

The GFA Agreement was monumental and changed lives.Shock I'm finding Tory supporters suffering more and more memory problems these days.Hmm

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/07/2023 18:11

SaorAlba1 · 08/07/2023 15:19

India, Brazil, Japan, Australia, Germany, Mexico, Pakistan, New Zealand, South Korea, Canada, Netherlands, France, Spain, USA, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Sweden, Portugal, Norway, Turkey, Italy, plus many more all had higher corporation tax than the UK up until this year. In fact, everyone before France in the above list still do.

Corporation Tax isn't some magic pill that automatically means you'll get investment. Businesses / investors look at all manner of things when assessing a country, and while CT is a consideration, as part of the overall cost of doing business, it's not a priority consideration for most organisations.

Far more important are things like market potential, economic and political stability, governance and regulation, infrastructure, condition of the workforce (education and health), proximity of suppliers and customers, ease of moving goods / people, etc., etc.

The UK isn't particularly appealing on most of those anymore, partly due to the tories complete failure to invest in anything and mismanagement of the countrh, and partly due to the terminally stupid decision to become more isolationist when we have a service based economy.

The Tory party's chaos has made the UK uninvestable that's why there is no hope of things changing while they remain in power.

askmeonemoretime · 09/07/2023 00:39

The kind of companies who follow the low tax havens in the world tend to be low productivity low wage companies. They do not build a strong economy.
The current government though either does not know or does not care about what builds a stronger economy.
We are falling behind on so many elements needed.

SolarPoweredHuman · 09/07/2023 04:02

I can't believe we've come to the position of not having anyone decent to vote for at the next GE!

That's hardly new!!

SunnyEgg · 09/07/2023 07:08

askmeonemoretime · 09/07/2023 00:39

The kind of companies who follow the low tax havens in the world tend to be low productivity low wage companies. They do not build a strong economy.
The current government though either does not know or does not care about what builds a stronger economy.
We are falling behind on so many elements needed.

Where does this come from?

If you google on RoI you’ll see

That has come from tech giants including Alphabet, Meta, Intel, LinkedIn and Amazon, along with firms like Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson.
Multinational-dominated sectors now account for more than half

Ireland's government surplus was 8 billion euros last year despite its spending on energy support packages and other measures, 1.6% of GDP — one of few EU countries to record a surplus.
The government expects this to swell further in the coming years, with the surplus totaling 65 billion euros over four years and potentially hitting 6.3% of gross national income — GDP plus all net receipts — by 2026.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/05/10/ireland-wants-to-put-soaring-corporate-taxes-into-a-new-sovereign-wealth-fund-.html

Check out Alphabet Class A's stock price (GOOGL) in real time

Get Alphabet Class A (GOOGL:NASDAQ) real-time stock quotes, news, price and financial information from CNBC.

https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/GOOGL/

user1497207191 · 09/07/2023 08:40

askmeonemoretime · 09/07/2023 00:39

The kind of companies who follow the low tax havens in the world tend to be low productivity low wage companies. They do not build a strong economy.
The current government though either does not know or does not care about what builds a stronger economy.
We are falling behind on so many elements needed.

Evidence? Lots of well known large international firms have bases in low tax countries. Google based their European division in Ireland and Holland because of the lower taxes - so you think Google is a "low productivity, low wage company"? It's one of the most profitable companies in the World. Other firms include Amazon, Nike, Fedex, Pepsi, News International, Richard Branson's Virgin group, most global oil and gas producers, Apple, Goldman Sachs, Microsoft, IBM, ..... the list just goes on and on.

Ireland capitalised on that by offering one of the lowest corporation tax rates in the EU, the UK could have done the same and got some of those firms to set up their European bases in the UK, paying tax to the UK, employing more people in the UK, etc.

You're well off the mark if you seriously think that only "low productivity, low wage" companies use tax havens and low tax countries!