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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Child out of wedlock / illegitimate - does it still matter

329 replies

Bananabreadandstrawberries · 05/07/2023 13:30

Does it still matter in any way whether your child was born within a marriage or not? Is there any stigma to being an ‘unwed mother’ or ‘illegitimate child’ (apologies no offence intended). Do you view people differently before of this status? Are there any practical implications?

For those of you who feel it doesn’t matter, would you still prefer your own daughter were married before having children?

I ask as I feel despite most people not minding this about other people, the couples ‘doing better’ in life still tend to marry before having children. I am not sure

AIBU that legitimacy doesn’t matter anymore?
YES = Makes a difference (even though it’s not PC to say so)
NO = Makes no difference about being married before children.

OP posts:
Bananabreadandstrawberries · 05/07/2023 18:31

RadoxRita · 05/07/2023 18:22

Practical implications: I’m not in this position, but my understanding from friends that are, is that if you have a child out of wedlock and then have a child in wedlock (even with the same partner), if you don’t have a will written or amend the child’s birth certificate to reflect the parents’ new married status, then any children born in wedlock would automatically inherit your full estate after your death.

Is this really the case re: inheritance?!

As someone mentioned earlier, any experience from people who are a child of unwed parents who then marry someone else and have children later?

OP posts:
Lastusernamecantthinkofanotherone · 05/07/2023 18:32

RadoxRita · 05/07/2023 18:22

Practical implications: I’m not in this position, but my understanding from friends that are, is that if you have a child out of wedlock and then have a child in wedlock (even with the same partner), if you don’t have a will written or amend the child’s birth certificate to reflect the parents’ new married status, then any children born in wedlock would automatically inherit your full estate after your death.

This is incorrect. Check the family reform act:

Right of illegitimate child to succeed on intestacy of parents, and of parents to succeed on intestacy f illegitimate child(1)Where either parent of an illegitimate child dies intestate as respects all or any of his or her real or personal property, the illegitimate child or, if he is dead, his issue, shall be entitled to take any interest therein to which he or such issue would have been entitled if he had been born legitimate.

QueenoftheNimbleFlyingCat · 05/07/2023 18:37

Bananabreadandstrawberries · 05/07/2023 14:15

Absolutely makes a big difference to financial security in the event of separation.

For some women, yes. For me, marriage would have made me worse off. I won't be encouraging my daughter to marry but to insist on her financial independence.

jauty · 05/07/2023 18:38

I had my first dc out of wedlock (unplanned) and dc2 and dc3 when I was married (to a different man from dc1's father). I definitely felt a sense of security with dc2 and dc3 that wasn't there with dc1. I would prefer my dc's to be married before having children and that's most common in my family (which is from a non British background and far more traditional).

I'm very aware of the legal differences between cohabiting couples and married couples and I would not have had dc2 and dc3 without being married.

Sugarspiceallthingsnice2 · 05/07/2023 18:38

Children born to married parents are statistically more likely to have better outcomes. This is taking into other socioeconomic factors (as in, it's not because wealthier people tend to get married. Even if you're born to poorer less educated parents, if they're married you're statistically more likely to have better outcomes).

Child out of wedlock / illegitimate - does it still matter
Child out of wedlock / illegitimate - does it still matter
RoseslnTheHospital · 05/07/2023 18:40

Sugarspiceallthingsnice2 · 05/07/2023 18:38

Children born to married parents are statistically more likely to have better outcomes. This is taking into other socioeconomic factors (as in, it's not because wealthier people tend to get married. Even if you're born to poorer less educated parents, if they're married you're statistically more likely to have better outcomes).

Could you post a link rather than a screenshot? On the iOS app it's not a readable image.

Thepeopleversuswork · 05/07/2023 18:42

ElizabethBest · 05/07/2023 17:40

Culturally, not in the slightest. Legally and financially, you have more security if you are married, unfortunately.

That depends who has the strongest financial position.

If you are the breadwinner and the biggest earner (as I am in my relationship), marriage diminishes your security. I would never get married.

I wish people would educate themselves on this a bit before blithely parroting out this: “marriage protects you” line.

It can protect you or it can be a cocklodger’s charter.

bryceQ · 05/07/2023 18:43

I wouldn't know those around me if they are married or not.

We weren't married when we had my son,we got married two years later

Sugarspiceallthingsnice2 · 05/07/2023 18:44

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

IncreasinglyGrumpy · 05/07/2023 18:45

I met my now hubby in 1981 when I was 15 and he was 17 - we had 2 children before we married and 2 after - we are still together (42 years / married 31) - I have 1 married daughter 3 unmarried sons and no grandchildren. Wouldn't make any difference to me who did or didn't have children or who was married - my daughters wedding was fab though but she kept her maiden name x

Sugarspiceallthingsnice2 · 05/07/2023 18:46

EVIDENCE ON THE BENEFITS OF MARRIAGE

STABILITY
Cohabitees are more likely to separate than married couples
“Children born to cohabiting parents were almost three times as likely as those born to
married parents to no longer be living with both these parents when they were 5 years old”.1
Having children outside of marriage increases the risk of marriage breakdown
“76 per cent of mothers who married before giving birth remained intact, compared to 44
per cent of those who married after they had their first child”.2
Children of married parents are themselves more likely to get married
“Over the course of a lifetime, British adults were … 10 percent more likely to have got
married … if their parents were married at the time of their birth”.3
HEALTH AND HAPPINESS
Married people are happier
“even when controlling for pre-marital life satisfaction levels, those who marry are more
satisfied than those who remain single… the benefits of marriage persist in the long-term”.4
Married women live healthier lifestyles
“Smoking, recreational drug usage and depressive symptoms were much lower for
continuously married women than for all other women”.5
Married men are healthier
“…after adjustment of potentially confounding variables, the risk of mortality from
cardiovascular disease, respiratory disease, external causes, and all causes was two- to threefold higher for never-married than for married men”.6
There are fewer mental health issues for married couples
“Marriage was associated with reduced risk of the first onset of most mental disorders in
both men and women”.7
Children of married parents have better health
Pre-school age children were almost three times more likely to be significantly overweight
(BMI equal to or greater than the 95th percentile) if they grew up in an “unstable
cohabiting” home compared to a “stable married” home.8
“Compared to children living with married parents, children who lived in other family
types, including other stable families, were more likely to display externalising behavioural
problems at age 5”.9
Children aged 5 to 10 years old are nearly three times more likely to have mental health
issues living with a lone parent and twice as likely with cohabiting parents, compared to
living with married parents.10
WEALTH
Married couples are richer than cohabitees
“Tracking the earnings of comparable men for a decade from 2009 showed a correlation
between income increase and family structure. For men who married during this time their
income grew 58.8%, while for cohabitees their income grew by 46.4%.”11
Children of married couples are more likely to move out of poverty than children of
unmarried parents
“An American study found that there was an 80% chance of moving out of poverty for those
born in poverty to married parents, compared to 50% for those born in poverty to unmarried
parents.”12
CRIMINALITY
Unmarried mothers experience more violence
Twice as many unmarried mothers reported that their partner used force in their relationship
compared to married mothers.13
Adolescent children from fatherless homes are more likely to be incarcerated
Adolescents from fatherless homes are three times more likely to be incarcerated by the age
of 30 than those from intact families.14
EDUCATION
Children of married parents fare better at school
Comparing married, cohabiting and single parent families, children from married homes:
• Get the best grades in school;
• Are least likely to be expelled;
• Are least likely to have other problems at school.15
Children of married parents are more likely to go to university
“Over the course of a lifetime, British adults were 23 percent more likely to have been to
university … if their parents were married at the time of their birth”.16
1 Holmes, J and Kiernan, K, ‘Fragile Families in the UK: evidence from the Millennium Cohort Study – Draft Report’, University of
York (2010), pages 2 and 22
2 Marriage Foundation, March 2015, https://marriagefoundation.org.uk/first-comes-love-then-comes-marriage-tying-the-knotbefore-first-baby-is-a-key-ingredient-for-marriage-success/ accessed 24 February 2023
3 The long term effect of marriage on social mobility, Marriage Foundation, January 2018, https://marriagefoundation.org.uk/
wp-content/uploads/2018/01/MF-paper-Social-mobility-January-2018.pdf accessed 6 March 2023
4 Grover, S and Helliwell, J F, ‘How’s Life at Home? New Evidence on Marriage and the Set Points for Happiness’, Journal of Happiness Studies (2019) 20, pages 384-385
5 Family Structure Still Matters, The Centre for Social Justice, August 2020, https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/wp-content/
uploads/2020/10/CSJJ8372-Family-structure-Report-200807.pdf accessed 9 March 2023
6 Ikeda, A, Iso, H, Toyoshima, H et al, ‘Marital Status and Mortality Among Japanese Men And Women: The Japan Collaborative
Cohort Study’, BMC Public Health (2007) 7(73), page 4
7 Scott, K, Wells, J E, Angermeyer M et al, ‘Gender and the Relationship Between Marital Status and First onset of Mood, Anxiety
and Substance Use Disorder’, Psychological Medicine (2010) 40(9)
8 Waldfogel, J, Craige, T, and Brooks-Gunn, J, ‘Fragile Families and Child Wellbeing’, The Future of Children (2010) 20(2), pages
102 and 105
9 The Centre for Social Justice, Op cit, page 14
10 Children whose families struggle to get on are more likely to have mental disorders, Office for National Statistics, 26 March
2019, https://bit.ly/3Faxq9o accessed 24 February 2023
11 The Centre for Social Justice, Op cit, page 7
12 Ibid, page 9
13 Ibid, page 16
14 Harper, C and McLanahan, S, ‘Father’s Absence and Youth Incarceration’, Journal of Research on Adolescence (2004) 14(3),
pages 382-3
15 Manning, W and Lamb, K, ‘Adolescent Well-Being in Cohabitating, Married, and Single-Parent Families’, Journal of Marriage
and Family (2003) 65(4), page 885
16 The long term effect of marriage on social mobility, Marriage Foundation, January 2018, https://marriagefoundation.org.uk/
wp-content/uploads/2018/01/MF-paper-Social-mobility-January-2018.pdf accessed 6 March 2023

RoseslnTheHospital · 05/07/2023 18:47

@Sugarspiceallthingsnice2 if your link is to an archive type url sometimes MN automatically hides those. Just the name of the research paper would do, and I could find it myself.

SueVineer · 05/07/2023 18:48

It doesn’t bother me - I’m an unmarried mum and so was my mum. I have a highly paid and respected professions. I wouldn’t be bothered if my dds married before kids either- marriage isn’t necessarily advantageous to women especially if they are the higher earner or have more assets.

SueVineer · 05/07/2023 18:49

Thepeopleversuswork · 05/07/2023 18:42

That depends who has the strongest financial position.

If you are the breadwinner and the biggest earner (as I am in my relationship), marriage diminishes your security. I would never get married.

I wish people would educate themselves on this a bit before blithely parroting out this: “marriage protects you” line.

It can protect you or it can be a cocklodger’s charter.

Same for me. I saved myself a fortune by not marrying my ex.

RoseslnTheHospital · 05/07/2023 18:50

@Sugarspiceallthingsnice2 where is all that from?

SueVineer · 05/07/2023 18:54

Sugarspiceallthingsnice2 · 05/07/2023 18:46

EVIDENCE ON THE BENEFITS OF MARRIAGE

STABILITY
Cohabitees are more likely to separate than married couples
“Children born to cohabiting parents were almost three times as likely as those born to
married parents to no longer be living with both these parents when they were 5 years old”.1
Having children outside of marriage increases the risk of marriage breakdown
“76 per cent of mothers who married before giving birth remained intact, compared to 44
per cent of those who married after they had their first child”.2
Children of married parents are themselves more likely to get married
“Over the course of a lifetime, British adults were … 10 percent more likely to have got
married … if their parents were married at the time of their birth”.3
HEALTH AND HAPPINESS
Married people are happier
“even when controlling for pre-marital life satisfaction levels, those who marry are more
satisfied than those who remain single… the benefits of marriage persist in the long-term”.4
Married women live healthier lifestyles
“Smoking, recreational drug usage and depressive symptoms were much lower for
continuously married women than for all other women”.5
Married men are healthier
“…after adjustment of potentially confounding variables, the risk of mortality from
cardiovascular disease, respiratory disease, external causes, and all causes was two- to threefold higher for never-married than for married men”.6
There are fewer mental health issues for married couples
“Marriage was associated with reduced risk of the first onset of most mental disorders in
both men and women”.7
Children of married parents have better health
Pre-school age children were almost three times more likely to be significantly overweight
(BMI equal to or greater than the 95th percentile) if they grew up in an “unstable
cohabiting” home compared to a “stable married” home.8
“Compared to children living with married parents, children who lived in other family
types, including other stable families, were more likely to display externalising behavioural
problems at age 5”.9
Children aged 5 to 10 years old are nearly three times more likely to have mental health
issues living with a lone parent and twice as likely with cohabiting parents, compared to
living with married parents.10
WEALTH
Married couples are richer than cohabitees
“Tracking the earnings of comparable men for a decade from 2009 showed a correlation
between income increase and family structure. For men who married during this time their
income grew 58.8%, while for cohabitees their income grew by 46.4%.”11
Children of married couples are more likely to move out of poverty than children of
unmarried parents
“An American study found that there was an 80% chance of moving out of poverty for those
born in poverty to married parents, compared to 50% for those born in poverty to unmarried
parents.”12
CRIMINALITY
Unmarried mothers experience more violence
Twice as many unmarried mothers reported that their partner used force in their relationship
compared to married mothers.13
Adolescent children from fatherless homes are more likely to be incarcerated
Adolescents from fatherless homes are three times more likely to be incarcerated by the age
of 30 than those from intact families.14
EDUCATION
Children of married parents fare better at school
Comparing married, cohabiting and single parent families, children from married homes:
• Get the best grades in school;
• Are least likely to be expelled;
• Are least likely to have other problems at school.15
Children of married parents are more likely to go to university
“Over the course of a lifetime, British adults were 23 percent more likely to have been to
university … if their parents were married at the time of their birth”.16
1 Holmes, J and Kiernan, K, ‘Fragile Families in the UK: evidence from the Millennium Cohort Study – Draft Report’, University of
York (2010), pages 2 and 22
2 Marriage Foundation, March 2015, https://marriagefoundation.org.uk/first-comes-love-then-comes-marriage-tying-the-knotbefore-first-baby-is-a-key-ingredient-for-marriage-success/ accessed 24 February 2023
3 The long term effect of marriage on social mobility, Marriage Foundation, January 2018, https://marriagefoundation.org.uk/
wp-content/uploads/2018/01/MF-paper-Social-mobility-January-2018.pdf accessed 6 March 2023
4 Grover, S and Helliwell, J F, ‘How’s Life at Home? New Evidence on Marriage and the Set Points for Happiness’, Journal of Happiness Studies (2019) 20, pages 384-385
5 Family Structure Still Matters, The Centre for Social Justice, August 2020, https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/wp-content/
uploads/2020/10/CSJJ8372-Family-structure-Report-200807.pdf accessed 9 March 2023
6 Ikeda, A, Iso, H, Toyoshima, H et al, ‘Marital Status and Mortality Among Japanese Men And Women: The Japan Collaborative
Cohort Study’, BMC Public Health (2007) 7(73), page 4
7 Scott, K, Wells, J E, Angermeyer M et al, ‘Gender and the Relationship Between Marital Status and First onset of Mood, Anxiety
and Substance Use Disorder’, Psychological Medicine (2010) 40(9)
8 Waldfogel, J, Craige, T, and Brooks-Gunn, J, ‘Fragile Families and Child Wellbeing’, The Future of Children (2010) 20(2), pages
102 and 105
9 The Centre for Social Justice, Op cit, page 14
10 Children whose families struggle to get on are more likely to have mental disorders, Office for National Statistics, 26 March
2019, https://bit.ly/3Faxq9o accessed 24 February 2023
11 The Centre for Social Justice, Op cit, page 7
12 Ibid, page 9
13 Ibid, page 16
14 Harper, C and McLanahan, S, ‘Father’s Absence and Youth Incarceration’, Journal of Research on Adolescence (2004) 14(3),
pages 382-3
15 Manning, W and Lamb, K, ‘Adolescent Well-Being in Cohabitating, Married, and Single-Parent Families’, Journal of Marriage
and Family (2003) 65(4), page 885
16 The long term effect of marriage on social mobility, Marriage Foundation, January 2018, https://marriagefoundation.org.uk/
wp-content/uploads/2018/01/MF-paper-Social-mobility-January-2018.pdf accessed 6 March 2023

These are not evidence that marriage benefits anyone in particular, rather a correlation that wealthier more middle class people are more likely to marry and are more likely to have better outcomes in life. You could probably do the same with owning a Range Rover.

studies of single mums who aren’t poor and haven’t had an acrimonious break up with their ex actually show better outcomes for the kids. Generally however single mothers correlate strongly with poverty hence poorer outcomes. But it’s not a causal link.

Dogsandbabies · 05/07/2023 18:57

I have advised my eldest (the only one who is old enough to understand) to avoid marriage. We are relatively well off and I would rather she doesn't have to give away half of everything should divorce be on the cards. I think marriage is antiquated personally. And weddings are a huge waste of money (for some).

I am not married. We have a power of attorney and wills in place. That's enough for us.

SnackSizeRaisin · 05/07/2023 19:44

Bananabreadandstrawberries · 05/07/2023 14:33

Thank you, I didn’t know that children born in wedlock would have any difference in terms of inheritance sans a will?

If someone died without a will, with 1 child born in wedlock, and 1 child out of wedlock, what would the difference in inheritance be?

If someone dies with no will their spouse inherits, if they have one. If unmarried the children inherit, even if the deceased has a partner. If a parent dies with no will and they have no spouse, there's difference between an illegitimate child and one born within marriage.

SnackSizeRaisin · 05/07/2023 19:49

Bananabreadandstrawberries · 05/07/2023 18:31

Is this really the case re: inheritance?!

As someone mentioned earlier, any experience from people who are a child of unwed parents who then marry someone else and have children later?

No it's not it's rubbish

SueVineer · 05/07/2023 20:10

SnackSizeRaisin · 05/07/2023 19:49

No it's not it's rubbish

It is rubbish. There is no difference in inheritance rights between children whose parents are married and those who are not. Not in Scotland and not in England. Complete nonsense.

Countingdowntodecember · 05/07/2023 20:12

It doesn’t matter at all. I’m married but would never judge anyone for not being…

Thepowerhouseofthecell · 05/07/2023 20:15

I'm unmarried with a child. It matters to my 86yr old grandad but nobody else. And I asked him not to refer my child as illegitimate as I haven't actually broken any laws by having him, he is not an "illegal" human being. Hate the term!

SueVineer · 05/07/2023 20:17

SnackSizeRaisin · 05/07/2023 19:44

If someone dies with no will their spouse inherits, if they have one. If unmarried the children inherit, even if the deceased has a partner. If a parent dies with no will and they have no spouse, there's difference between an illegitimate child and one born within marriage.

There’s no difference on intestacy between legitimate and illegitimate children of men or women when it comes to inheritance. There hasn’t been for about 40 years in England and longer in Scotland

Moveoverdarlin · 05/07/2023 20:18

I wanted to be married before I had children and would want the same for my children. In my circle, you wouldn’t dream of mentioning it but I do think people would be a bit snotty about a couple not being married.

Mamai90 · 05/07/2023 20:20

Definitely doesn't matter anymore and it happens in all walks of life. My Dad used to joke about my friends having kids out of wedlock until I pointed out that my cousin who is a consultant had her kids out of wedlock too. No stigma at all, thankfully!

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