Permanently banned for ‘promoting hate’

[RumAndReisling]

Following ten years uneventful membership of a major social media site I have been permanently banned for ‘promoting hate’.

Never again will I be able to participate on that site.

My crime? Saying that if you had given birth to a child, there was no way you could literally change sex and produce semen to father one.

Is this not a statement of fact, or is this now unacceptable to say?

AIBU to say that my husband isn’t able to give birth?

Yes I think they do. But it's a tiny minority of trans people. Is this comment o ly applicable to that tiny minority? If there were a woman who was sometimes thought to be a man do you think they should be called dad? (I mean an actual woman here, not transwoman).

I'm just trying to drill it down. There are scenarios where it makes sense to call a parent by the gendered parent name that they actually look like. This whole debate has got me thinking because I have friends who are the hypothetical scenario I was describing. They've just had a baby through IVF and the trans man is, of course, the dad. Nobody who meets him thinks he's a woman so it would be extremely weird if he was referred to as mum.
Knowing that my friends exist, there has to be an equivalent scenario where one parent is a trans woman and why would it be different there? So I personally have found it weird seeing people talk about this and saying a trans woman can never be called mum. It must come down to how well the person passes really because if you think a child should call their parent dad if they look like a woman and have a woman's name etc that's a weird point of view.

Just to be clear: when you say "man", you mean "male adult"?

In gender terms a man is an innate identity, not something you can tell by looking. Hence the need to clarify, sorry...

I think some people might know full well that the TM is a woman but be being polite or top afraid to talk up. It's a bit harsh to suggest that very butch women have to be called dad tbh.

A man is an adult who has a penis and XY chromosomes.

A woman is an adult who has a vagina and XX chromosomes.

Why does it need to be more complicated than that?

I don't know about "some" people knowing without being told. Maybe. But I have a whole group of friends who didn't know until they were told. He's the sort of person who, if he was in a group of men and you were told one of them is trans, then maybe you'd guess it was him. But you wouldn't know if it wasn't suggested that he might be.

To your other point, you seem skeptical of the idea that trans people can pass in general, so I don't know what to say to your suggestion that there could be a butch lesbian who is mistaken for a man so exclusively that it would make sense for her child to call her dad. And presumably she wouldn't make the choice to get her child to call her dad either.

So it's not about what they look like then in the case of the butch woman? But it is with the TM? That seems very confused.

As I already said, I belive some trans people can pass. But there are loads who don't. On occasion people have shared photos of people they say pass and they really don't.

It seems inappropriate to me to set rules or norms based on passing because it leaves some trans people treated differently than others.

A man is a man regardless of what surgery they've had or drugs they're taking. That's the only way to have equitability

A poster has mentioned trans men/ women “passing” and that’s it really isn’t? A person may be surgically modified and medicated to pass/present as the opposite sex and they may pass but they have not changed sex.

I totally agree.

When a man says 'i feel like a woman', how do they know that?? They don't know what it feels like to be a woman.

Also, why do most transwoman wear makeup, heels and skirts? I've never seen a transwoman who looks me - trainers, jeans, t shirt, no make up. Wearing a skirt and make up does not make you a woman.

I don't understand transgender stuff, I don't understand how someone can feel a different gender. But people can identify as whatever they want as far as I'm concerned. If my neighbour wanted to identify as a tree and wear a suit with leaves on, I'd support him all the way, be kind and respectful. But I wouldn't agree he's a tree because he says he is and wears an outfit of a stereotypical tree (branches, leaves etc..).

Equally, if a man identifies as a woman and wants to wear stereotypical female clothes, that's fine with me. I'll be kind and respectful. But I'm not going to believe he's a woman.

I personally think trans women perpetuate a female stereotype that I don't like. If it's all about feelings, why don't trans women carry on dressing as they did before - no make up, jeans, t shirts etc... Why do they perpetuate this idea that being female is wearing makeup, heels and skirts?

Personally I think transwoman is about fetish for wearing female clothes, not about how a person feels (since no transwoman can possibly know how it feels to be a woman)

I know people will disagree with me, but at least there is some freedom of speech (on this matter at least) on mumsnet.

Yes “passing” is an odd term. What does it really mean - that your disguise is effective or maybe that you are androgynous-looking naturally.

you could impersonate a police officer, a security guard, a doctor, a meter reader or just any other individual and you might “pass”. It doesn’t make you actually any more something you’re not, than if you don’t.

I suspect that people will also lie about males who pass. Those males might pass until they move, speak or have a longer conversation. It may be that the male individual has had facial feminisation surgeries including the narrowing of the gap between the top of the lip and the base of the nose.

Male people have pelvis' that are different to female pelvis' and that also means that they then have q angles that are different which effects their gait.

There are many male cues and a large proportion of female people will pick up on those cues.

Transitioned female people could be said to 'pass' better due to the irreversible side effects of testosterone.

The whole concept of "passing" also rests on the belief that men are male-bodied and women are female-bodied. Which is also a gender-critical belief.

I wonder if OP would have been allowed to state that without being banned?

If it's all about feelings, why don't trans women carry on dressing as they did before - no make up, jeans, t shirts etc...

There are some that do. This is why appearance isn't necessarily a factor in being trans. And why no-one can tell which male (or female) people are women (in the undefined gender way) from looking.

Obviously the choice of the family is the most important factor, I thought that went without saying. A butch lesbian mother probably wouldn't choose to be called dad. My friend could, if he wanted, choose to be called mum, but he wouldn't want to do that since everyone sees him as a man and he isn't necessarily "out" publically as a trans person. So if his kid was calling him mum everyone would ask why. Presumably that's a conversation they'll have with the child when they're older. But in that circumstance why would the parents choose the word mum for him?

its always hard to tell if someone has a mental health condition from just looking at them. It’s easy to tell a man from a woman, one has a penis the other doesn’t. Job done.

Transitioned female people could be said to 'pass' better due to the irreversible side effects of testosterone.

Except... you can guess which one of these three is a man.

Presumably at least one person in the picture is trans otherwise you wouldn't have posted it. It's not always easy to tell if you haven't been given some kind of contextual rip-off.

Tip off not rip off.

Oh come on. You have eyes.

So you’re saying that trans women, who are clearly seen to be male, can be excluded from women’s spaces?
We’ve just got to allow the ones who pass 100% of the time in?

Women are hard-wired to tell a male person at 100 paces or more. It's inbuilt in us from caveman era for our survival. To suggest women can't tell a man from a woman (tell signs include height, gait, arm/limb length, hand size, head size, jaw, voice etc) is just gaslighting nonsense.

I said literally nothing whatsoever about women's spaces and I haven't said a single thing on this thread about women's spaces so no, I'm not saying that.

There is a tall woman in the picture but you can only see how tall she is in comparison to the other people in the picture so I don't know her height. I'm assuming this is the person in the picture who is trans, because of the height. If indeed there is a trans person in the picture and you're not just tricking me.

Also, bit weird this thread just descended into "here's a picture of a trans person let's judge their appearance"

Because your friend is a woman. That's why.

Anyway in terms of your argument appears to have moved from 'a person who looks like a man should be called dad' to 'it's their choice'. So you think it's fine for someone who looks like a man to be called mum? So the looking like a man is irrelevant? So your friend could become comfortable with their sex and be called mum?

I'm just trying to follow the point you're making. You seem to now be saying you're OK with people choosing to call themselves either mum or dad. Personal.preference is all that matters?

But, ultimately, women’s spaces and language is what this whole debate is about.
If we’re forced to call trans women women, and pretend we can’t see that they’re male, then there’s no hope or possible protection of women’s spaces.

You talked about passing and said that was relevant in how people are treated. You bought it up as a factor which was important in relation to your friend. A person's appearance is not being judged. Their sex is being recognised.