To think D of E is a massive swindle

[DofEswindle]

Namechanged in case DD sees this!

She's doing Duke of Edinburgh Bronze with the school for the bargain (hah!) price of £250. I thought everything would be included for that money but we've now been told they need to get a rucksack liner ("no bin bags!") and fancy Wayfarer meal sachets ("no pot noodles!") as well as being told we can hire sleeping mats, sleeping bags etc. if we don't have them.

It just feels like a massive cash-in by the company organising it and Go Outdoors etc to make as much money as they can from gullible parents (me). I assumed the kids would meal plan together and work out what supplies to bring but they've all been told to get special sachets of ready meals at £4.50 each ("no pot noodles" but they are basically posh pot noodles).

Surely D of E should be about teamwork and loving the outdoors not sending your mum to spend a fortune in a camping shop? We're not on benefits so couldn't claim any help from school but £250 is an awful lot of money to spend a night in a field.

1. Cost - self explanatory, if you have no volunteers for supervising, there is a cost for "paid" supervisors.

2. They are advised to have 1000-1200 kcal for an evening meal...this can be made up however the team like, but freeze dried meals are best as they are light and small. Wayfair meals are heavier but cheaper. Pot noodles are only about 300cal, and have lots of air in them so are not advised as it is difficult/awkward to carry enough to make a 1000cal meal.

The advice is to carry stuff like dried meats, trail mix (check for nut allergies), wraps, flapjacks, sweets, dried fruit, crackers, biscuits, for snacks and lunch then they can choose to make an evening meal - pasta and stir in sauce is popular, or a freeze dried pack. That is down to your child's team.... Mine have done a combination of both cooking and freeze dried on the expeditions they have gone on.

One of mine took muesli with dried milk that he just added water to for breakfast.
They sometimes take hot chocolate (just add water type)....

You need to encourage your child to meet with their team and discuss the cooking and who is bringing what. Last walk (Gold) mine did he took 6 portions of pasta and someone else took the sauce for one night food. Two more did the same for the 2nd night, and two others took noodles and sauce for the 3rd night, they each took a freeze dried/wayfair meal for the 4th night...

It's ridiculous that there's a restriction to one brand of food! Hardly a skill to traipse into a shop and invoke the god of money 'dearly gullible, let us pay'

I'm aghast to hear that you have trainers and supervisors and kit requirements. I genuinely thought the whole point was to get kids being responsible for themselves once in their lifetime. I remember being 10 year olds and logging a tent on my own into a farmers field for a weekend a couple of miles from our home. It was tradition in our area for children as young as 6 to sleep wild over the pentecost weekend in the fields and woods surrounding our villages. Masses of sweets and crisps were compulsory and no parents allowed.

It’s a very interesting point about difference in cost between volunteer run and commercial. People generally don’t appreciate how much of difference volunteers make until it’s gone.
Especially with school staff I can see why desire to work for free isn’t there for no thanks and probably lots of parental hassle (who isn’t Jane in her friends tent, why didn’t you tell John to put suncream on, Katie’s lost her designer coat..was it labelled no)
In the past I think there was more understanding.
I do think we need to be more explicit. Cost is x but we can offer for y as we have 3 volunteers staffing event for free.
I’m a Guide leader not a teacher.
I’m paying to go on guide holiday next year - using a days annual leave, 3 days in charge of kids as unpaid volunteer and paying in full. I obviously don’t need to (but if I don’t the girls can’t go) and am going as it’s my hobby and I enjoy it but I can see why there’s a massive shortage of volunteers!

Pot noodles are 450 kcals per pot. They literally are freeze dried meals. Just not hyper expensive ones. If you don't like the bulk, you can take them out and put them in plastic bags (although I have always found that the mass is the key issue when you are walking for miles, not the size).

What the focus should be on is whether the meal has the nutritional requirements, not whether it fits in someone food snobs arbitrary definition of "junk" food. If the meal has the correct protein, fat etc then it doesn't matter whether it comes from a pot noodle and a mars bar or some hyper expensive expedition food.

I think what's important is for the participant to learn about nutrition and they do that by checking the RDA amounts for the food they are carrying and making sure it meets the requirements, not bailing out by buying expensive expedition food and therefore not having to do any of that because they know it's covered. There is no science or learning in the arbitrary banning of certain food types just because someone has randomly deemed it unacceptable.

I suppose what it does do is teach kids about captive markets, price gourging and rip offs. D of E should be egalitarian in my opinion. To me kids shouldn't be excluded because they can't afford £4.50 expedition meals pushed on them by money making commericial organisers.

I do have some sympathy for the amounts commercial organisers may have to charge, because of insurance considerations. But that sympathy doesn't extend to them being able to charge for or demand expensive expedition food.

@GasPanic Trouble is, many Bronze D of E do it because they think they have to, or their parents sign them up as it's a "good thing".

There then needs to be a degree of thought and effort from the participant as to what to take and how to cook it - I imagine wayfair meals fall into a "not too expensive, fit the bill" category for kids who don't want to think....Taking a single pot noodle in the pot won't fit the bill for calories or space, you are talking about being sensible, and that's some 13/14 yo's and not others!

Mine certainly weren't told to just take wayfair meals, but they were shown them as an example of things they could take - along with meals they could make, and alternatives including how to make their own "ready to eat" cereal, by mixing powder milk with porridge and powder milk with muesli (just add hot or cold water) etc.

YANBU about the rucksack liner. I am a long-distance hiker - ie. 3-4 weeks at a time - been doing it fortwo decades now. I've never had a rucksack liner. Stuff goes into waterproof stuff sacks and ziploc bags but before I bought stuff sacks I just used to shove stuff in bin liners.

The wayfarer meals are essential - way better than pot noodles. 4.50 per meal is not that much to be honest. Pot noodles are not adequate for the main meal of the day. I do sometimes take instant noodles with me but they are only for a top up at lunch time - find them easy to digest and not too filling which is not what you need when you need to keep hiking - ie. a stomach full of stodge is unhelpful! But you really do need a decent meal in the evening to help you sleep and to give you enough nutrition for the next day.
I used to try to avoid the expensive trekking meals (the ones I can get in the country where I live are around €11 each) but actually they are worth it. It's a completely different feeling eating one of those compared to some kind of packet pasta which was my previous go-to.

But I do agree with you - there are a lot of companies making a lot of money out of D of E kids. The only solution really is for schools either to have all the equipment which can be borrowed (not hired at an exorbitant cost) or for parents to pass stuff on/sell cheaply to others when their children are finished with them

I'd love to know what adults buy those special wayfarer things. Tins and pot noodles for us.

DC would be paying me back every penny if they did what you DC has

I just went on the website and looked at the some of these "expedition food" main meals.

From what I saw not a single one was over 200 kcal. vs 450 kcal for the pot noodle, which is probably 1/5th of the price.

I'm not sure how people are supposed to get 1000 kcal per meal unless they are willing to spend stupid amounts of money.

Oh actually I got the above wrong. It was per 100g and they are 300g sachets. So they would probably be about equal to the pot noodle.

This monster, the pot noodle King Chinese Chowmein is 540 kcal.

https://expeditionfoods.com/collections/1000kcal-1

Although for one night I would take fresh stuffed pasta and a sauce, since it is quicker to prepare, and has the same lack of washing up, which is always a bonus.

"massive swindle"

I disagree

It provides youngsters an opportunity to try new things, meet new people & go to new places

To learn soft skills like team building, sharing, caring, humour, time keeping, helping others during volunteering & expeditions

It provides extra experiences to add onto CV or to application for; college, University or employment

Trouble is, many Bronze D of E do it because they think they have to, or their parents sign them up as it's a "good thing".

This and then from that there are students taking DofE who aren't prepared or haven't appreciated what is required of them. I don't think the age limit should have been lowered because my experience is more issues once it opened to Year 9s, which makes sense as they're less mature and younger.

We never stipulated certain brand boil in the bag foods or set calorie requirements for a meal as everyone is different. We always did training sessions on how to cook on a stove, how to meal plan etc. We also talked about packing and storing food, the order to eat your food, what's good nutrition and not good nutrition for the activity being undertaken.

We were a very good and experienced team of volunteers. It took a lot of time to do that. I highly doubt external providers will do that because it would cost them in staffing.

I think most people think it is a good thing. I certainly do.

Unfortunately the problem with all good things is they need constant policing in order to stop groups of less well meaning individuals seizing them and profiteering from them.

If there aren't people out there willing to demand that the costs are kept reasonable, you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be someone out there willing to exploit that apathy.

I think tins would make it really heavy for the Gold, 4 days walking so they will be hungry so say a tin for lunch and one for dinner, that 8 tins on top of all their other stuff (tents and so on) water, snacks, breakfast stuff, toiletries and clothes, we were advised to think about the weight so advised tins and glass jars were best avoided.

Also carrying all the empties back would be a pain.

I am curious - was the DofE scheme dreamed up as some sort of potential post-nuclear war survival scheme (freeze dried food, navigating through the wilderness, camping in the woods)?
If it’s meant to be about volunteering, working as a team, organising food etc wouldn’t it be a better scheme for the 21st Century that the organising food part is creating meals that can be given out to homeless people or community kitchens. Create actual meals rather than some noodles and pepparami sticks. This would also cover the team work part, the volunteering part.
Rather than going for a hike and a bit of camping (with apparently expensive kit that won’t be used again) perhaps it should be about something more productive like helping in a community garden - growing food, building a fence. Actual useful skills with a useful end goal.
I just don’t get the point of the camping bit.

Cheap ways to get a lot of calories that do not involve high expense, heavy tins or pot noodles:

Breakfast: 150g porridge with 60g butter (520 + 430), in 2 x reusable Chinese takeaway containers
Lunch & snacks : cereal bars & biscuits
Supper: multiple bowls of plain pasta (1 kg bag to suffice for 2x 15 yr old boys over 2 days, silver)

I suggested DS add powdered milk to the porridge, and bring salt packets for the pasta, maybe bring some small carrots. "I'll be so hungry that I won't care what it tastes like." was his decision.

Its to give them a broad experience.

There are several sections to the award, volunteerung, skill, sport and the expedition.
so they do volunteering lots will support a food bank, work in a charity shop, help at guides etc for this section and they have to do a certain number hours of it.

Then there is a skill where you show progress, so some learn sign language or first aid or an instrument.

Then sports so they set a goal like couch to 5k or join a netball team all for a certain number of hours.

Then the expedition which is about team work, planning and taking them outside their comfort zone as some kids never leave a city or havent been away from home before.

Obviously all these things can be done outside of the scheme but i definitely think a lot of groups get some good volunteers because of it.

You take the pot noodles out of the pot and put them in plastic bags.

You keep one in the pot. That's your eating container which you can wash out. Saving you buying expensive mess tins. Or carrying them. It's not limited to pot noodles - super noodles are a possibility as well.

I think you can also get paper pots these days. But I would do the plastic bag trick.

I agree with pp that porridge is excellent food, nutritious and cheap. Like pot noodles though it is difficult to eat dry in an emergency. Which is why I always carry dex tablets (or mars bars if you want to do it on the cheap as dex tablets can be pricey).

I didn't mention pot noodles so not sure why that's addressed to me. I was talking about the weight of tins and jars. For gold the amount they have to carry for 4 days is heavy enough without tins and jars.

get the biggest dry bag you can for a rucksac liner - sports direct do very big, quite cheap ones. I'd also recommend a couple of smaller ones for sleeping bags and clothes.

Pot noodle if definitely not a sufficient meal for someone hiking miles and carrying all their kit, and the wayfairer type meals are the easiest thing to ensure no spills/ leaks, and no food poisoning if not cooked properly. Go Outdoor do some of their own versions (DofE participants also get a further discount on top of the discount card price - ask in store about it). I'd also recommend porridge if they have time to cook breakfast, and flapjack, tiffin etc as snacks.

The costs likely include a company with trainers and examiners to run the sessions, which will be the bulk of the cost, campsite fees, a contribution towards the school issued kit (assuming tents, rucksacs, trangias etc are all provided by school), which would be something most scout units would be running on volunteers and already have the equipment to lend out which had been paid for and used several times a year, with everyone paying a minimal cost for upkeep.

If you're keen to keep costs down for everyone, how about volunteering to get trained up to take a group out every year? If you can rope a few parents from other year groups in, you could definitely help the school to keep those costs down! Similarly, if you school doesn't have a mini bus or teachers to drive it, could you offer a lift to others to help keep everyone's petrol costs down?

If you did it through scouts, don't forgot you'd also have scouting subs to pay, as well as any additional fees aside from DofE (I know someone who did it through scouts for a similar price, but when it was broken down, parents were also paying for the meals, and a separate fee (£20 ish) for each expedition which covered campsite fees etc, and the initial fee just covered the scheme cost).

@Spendonsend but can it be done (and you get the award) without the expedition part? Because that’s the part that I think would be a barrier for many teens (costs, health reasons, disability reasons). The rest sounds great.

No sadly not. Perhaps it does need modernising or for the new duke of edingbugh to fund that bit somehow.

As discussed up thread disability is no barrier to completing the expedition section.