To think D of E is a massive swindle

[DofEswindle]

Namechanged in case DD sees this!

She's doing Duke of Edinburgh Bronze with the school for the bargain (hah!) price of £250. I thought everything would be included for that money but we've now been told they need to get a rucksack liner ("no bin bags!") and fancy Wayfarer meal sachets ("no pot noodles!") as well as being told we can hire sleeping mats, sleeping bags etc. if we don't have them.

It just feels like a massive cash-in by the company organising it and Go Outdoors etc to make as much money as they can from gullible parents (me). I assumed the kids would meal plan together and work out what supplies to bring but they've all been told to get special sachets of ready meals at £4.50 each ("no pot noodles" but they are basically posh pot noodles).

Surely D of E should be about teamwork and loving the outdoors not sending your mum to spend a fortune in a camping shop? We're not on benefits so couldn't claim any help from school but £250 is an awful lot of money to spend a night in a field.

As ever on these - anyone complaining about costs had better be doing a lot of volunteering themselves Baby Groups, Sports, Brownies, Scout , PTAs all of these survive on people giving up hours of their time. I have always volunteered a lot alongside a full-time job and kids and it's soul-destroying when people won't give up an hour of their time to help out or complain about activities. They are the same people who complain about the costs when these are inevitably passed to private companies.

That's pricey! We paid £70 they camped at school and school lent tents rucksacks sleeping bags, bedrolls and stoves free of charge. Also we were reccomended to use bingbags as liners! Your school sounds so ridiculous and ott!

I think that's just your school. I didn't pay anything to do mine, just campsite fees, we got a taxi one way to a start and that was a fiver. We did meal plan together and each took bits. We didn't use sachets but used easy to cook food. One of the girls went to New Zealand for her gold and I don't think that was much more than £250. Perhaps ask the school for a breakdown of what that is paying for.

I agree if run by a private company like at our school, join scouts, much cheaper

It was even worse for us as we paid up, then bought all the stuff at quite some expense - sleeping bag, massive rucksack, walking boots, waterproof trousers, new waterproof and warm coat.

Cost a bomb.

Our beloved cat died the night before the trip. DD was devastated and didn't go. 😳 Didn't get the award. Must have spent about £500 in all. 🤯

When dd2 came to it, she didn't even fancy it so the stuff didn't even get used. I'm thinking - travelling? 🤔

This is absolutely why pot noodles are not suitable. They don't have the correct calorific or food group values for the level of exercise on expedition days.

Pot noodles aren't empty calories at all.

Here is the nutritional information extract :

Pot Noodle Original Curry
Noodles in an Original Curry flavour sauce with vegetables and a little sachet of Sweet Mango Chutney.
Nutritional information
Typical values as prepared per 100g per POT* % per POT**
Energy 145 kcal 442 kcal 22%
Fat 5.4 g 16 g 23%
Fat of which saturates 2.6 g 7.9 g 40%
Carbohydrate 21 g 64 g 25%
Carbohydrate of which sugars 2 g 6.1 g 7%
Fibre 1.2 g 3.7 g 0%
Protein 2.8 g 8.5 g 17%
Salt 0.48 g 1.5 g 25%
Reference Intake

• % of Reference Intake of an average adult (8400kj/2000kcal) ** Pot makes up to 305g after preparation with water = 1 portion

You can argue they are unhealthy. You can argue they are difficult to eat without water (as a pp said). You can argue that they don't contain enough simple carbohydrates for an instant energy boost (but then a lot of foods that people would claim are "substantial" don't), you can get that just from buying some low cost dex tablets or mars bars if you are into chocolate.

What you can't argue is that they are "empty calories". Because there is just no science behind that.

WTF? We paid £40 and everyone had a bin bag and planning the meals was part of the challenge. What is the point if they have it all provided like some weird sleepover 😂

It’s sad that it costs that much ambit I’m guessing it’s that or the school can’t run it.
I used to organise the DodE at the school I taught at for a few years; the two teachers who ran it before me both didn’t want to continue and no other members of staff would do it. I have a physical health condition that prevented me doing the expeditions as I explained when I was being pressed to pick it up but no one else would even do any of it so it was that or drop the scheme and 100-ish students part way through would have to find another provider to finish it. So we had to resort to an outside company who charged this sort of amount for expeditions as there was no other way. I had to arrange it all and oversee all the other sections of the scheme and sign all the activities off.
its great when teachers can volunteer but they are already so overworked with other expectations on their free time that I don’t blame my colleagues for not wanting to give up more weekends to do this.

To add - our kit did however meal plan and split the costs. No pot noodles was the advice because they’re bulky! But whatever else they wanted that would give them the needed energy.

GasPanic
I think it's fairly clear from my post why pot noodles are an issue on DofE, even if i was flippant in my expression, which wasn't fair of me.

Students need to be fuelled properly for the expeditions to be safe.

Pot noodles, junk food, large amounts of sweets, energy drinks and other poor food choices aren't good ideas because they're not really offering much to the students for the activity they're doing.

Foods that take up a lot of space, haven't got the required nutritional value and are highly unlikely to sustain a teenager on several days of expedition are unlikely to be viewed positively by staff teams.

That's why some providers will suggest boil in the bag meals because it's easier for them.

My daughter they decided between them what to take. She said her dried apricots saved her - mini energy boosts! But you're right - major outlay fir equipment and my son did CCF instead and didn't have to pay for anything!

Schools seem to make it very expensive.

I did mine with Guides, camped in a field and borrowed what we didn't already own.

DCs did theirs with cCadets. Cost was less than £50 and the only kit we provided was boots.

FWIW, they have to "cook" so no instant noodles, but that doesn't mean they need camping meals. Ds1 took bacon and DS2 took hot dog sausages. If they've been asked for meals, that's the school, not the scheme.

My son hated the Wayfare food in sachets. I sent pitta bread, sandwich fillers, chocolate brioche, pasta and pour over sauce, porridge in pot and then snack bars. He had plenty to eat. I do agree though it is a very expensive experience. It seems to be a money making exercise. The organisers lent my son a rucksack as his was too small ( though I ordered the size they recommended). Good luck

Both mine are doing/have done dofe and thru have to plan their meals as a group. Things like pasta, beans, Swiss roll and custard. Cooking outdoors is a part of it too.

£250?! My son is doing bronze DofE with school and it is £70 for the whole thing. He just needs his own kit. What're you getting fir all that money?

It isn't just the OP's school, it is really common now.
Teachers no longer have the time or energy to run it, so companies have popped up to step in.
Those companies need to pay their staff.
That is the HUGE difference between prices - if you are having to pay people wages, then that is where the money goes.

I paid £13.50

I wouldn’t expect all that to be included, presumably that’s just for running costs.

Some things requested here seem to be based on local decisions tho and not necessarily universal.

Do it with Scouts or Army Cadets. We paid £20 to register and most of the kit is supplied, then it’s just food and travel for the expedition. Plus with these organisations you get much more experienced leaders and better expeditions

Hello,
I’m both a teacher and a Gude leader.
daughter did DoE thorough Guiding, and relatively cheap as only costs food, travel and campsite.
Son did DoE thorough school, with expeditions through external provided. For silver you are looking at 3 weekends, so each weekend 48 hours of time needed for paid assessors. Even paying only minimum wage, with ratios needed, this is a huge staffing bill. This is why the cost of external DofE is so expensive.
when Guiders/Scouters/ teachers run it they are volunteers so no payment is given to the staff time.
Teachers running clubs out of school, and those other volunteers (guide/
scout leaders, football coaches, church youth group leaders etc) are getting fewer and fewer and less appreciated by both parents and children. Please value your volunteers…..

is all this kit just for one night outdoors? One night? Maybe the Duke of Edinburgh….which ever inbred holds the ridiculous title these days….should pay for these kids’ equipment & posh pot noodles!

@LolaSmiles But the average wayfarer meal has about 400 calories. Some as little as 300. I really don't understand why these are acceptable while pot noodles (same if not more calories, lighter weight, and cheaper) are not?

As has been said repeatedly, the reason some people get a “cheap” DOfE experience is because of volunteers. Scout / Guide / cadet leaders are already volunteers, so they ‘just’ volunteer a bit more to provide the DOfE experience. They are amazing.

Schools also rely on volunteers to help keep the cost down, and when they can’t get them (more and more frequently) they have to outsource. I have worked as a (paid) freelance DOfE person with bronze practice groups - which does trouble me on a moral basis because I agree that the move to external providers is pricing kids out and I feel it is against the ethos, however, if these providers didn’t exist then DOfE would not be offered in many schools.

From a cost point of view, 1 member of staff per group of 4-7, walking and training with them for 6 hours, a couple of hours at camp supervising tent putting up and cooking, overnight pastoral care - £210 for 24 hours is what I’d get paid. Do that again on the actual expedition and possibly a training day at school beforehand and the labour costs alone are looking at £100-£150 a participant. And then yes, of course, the provider wants to make a profit (they are a business) but also they need to buy and maintain tents, stoves, etc - I’m not sure any of them are making a “big fat profit”.

I also volunteer on the DOfE programme at the school I work at because I think it’s awesome and extremely worthwhile. Volunteers are fed and watered and looked after - the costs of which will be spread amongst the participants but will still be significantly lower than using an AAP - and we have a good laugh. Our biggest costs are transport, which are ridiculous.

I know I’ve not added anything new, but there’s a reason some schools charge £250 and it’s because they want to give kids the opportunity to do DOfE but can’t / won’t staff it internally. If you think it’s too expensive, don’t sign up and if everyone feels the same the school will stop running it. That means the teacher who was probably stitched up to run it will be able to breath, and it will be a lot less hassle all round.

I think it’s the school not the scheme. My children’s school had the camping equipment, they just provided a list of items and told you what was and wasn’t essential. There was no specification on food, or ruck sack linings. We got essentials such as a plate/cup from asda rather than a camping shop - picnic stuff. And if you buy for the bronze, keep the equipment for the silver/gold and then sell.