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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Not to send my children to private school even though I can afford it

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 01/07/2023 21:38

I believe in comprehensive education and think children should all be educated together, to improve social mobility and prevent a "brain drain" where less privileged children go to some schools, and more privileged go to others.
Am I in the minority and being naive?

YANBU - comprehensive schools are the way to go
YABU - I'd send my children private if I could

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
AdamRyan · 06/07/2023 09:28

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 08:11

The VAT exemption is not due to the charitable status, I believe, but because education is an “exempt supply” ie the VAT legislation lists it as a service exempt from VAT.
there used to be quite a few tax experts on MN so I hope someone will say if I have that wrong.
if you have any evidence that any school is claiming charitable status improperly you should send it to the Charity Commission and HMRC so they can investigate. Because I’m sure you wouldn’t make such a claim without evidence, would you …

Read the link

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 06/07/2023 09:31

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 08:44

He’s Boris, but more boring.
god we are in for a bad time

Oh get real
He is not a corrupt, lying, immoral law breaker is he? Boris was a uniquely unsuitable prime minister, its totally ridiculous to suggest any leader of any party is the same

OP posts:
Blossomtoes · 06/07/2023 09:50

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 08:44

He’s Boris, but more boring.
god we are in for a bad time

Your credibility (if you ever had any) left the building with that ridiculous statement. Even the worst if the current Tories haven’t sunk to the depths of their erstwhile leader. The only valid comparison with Johnson is Trump.

SunnyEgg · 06/07/2023 10:02

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 08:44

He’s Boris, but more boring.
god we are in for a bad time

I hope the press start to ask direct questions

He blustered through it this morning.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 10:05

AdamRyan · 06/07/2023 09:28

Read the link

I did. The person who wrote it doesn’t understand the basics of charity law. Education is in and of itself a charitable purpose. Nothing in that article establishes that any of the schools mentioned are claiming to be charities improperly.
if you have such evidence, there are regulators empowered to act. Go to it!

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 10:07

Blossomtoes · 06/07/2023 09:50

Your credibility (if you ever had any) left the building with that ridiculous statement. Even the worst if the current Tories haven’t sunk to the depths of their erstwhile leader. The only valid comparison with Johnson is Trump.

I don’t know who you are, or why you feel that’s the way to make your argument - but I do feel relatively confident that your assessment is not something I need to be concerned about.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 10:10

SunnyEgg · 06/07/2023 10:02

I hope the press start to ask direct questions

He blustered through it this morning.

The problem we have here is we have journalists who are wholly ignorant of the breadth of provision in the independent sector asking questions of a man who is similarly ignorant.
the different parts of the independent sector need to be doing something about this, or the public is going to have the wool pulled over its eyes again

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 10:23

SunnyEgg · 06/07/2023 10:02

I hope the press start to ask direct questions

He blustered through it this morning.

As an aside, you do have to wonder, when you hear him speak, how he ended up a silk. i guess he was just better with someone else’s case …

Barbadossunset · 06/07/2023 10:26

whodawhodaeho · Today 07:29
I honestly don’t know why people bother coming on here with the I knew a kid who’s mum was a single mother, PT nurse at our private school etc.

You’ve offered just as much anecdata such as most of the students at uni who went off the rails were well off, and most private school teachers are ‘posh’, plus spiteful comments like ‘you do you love’ at a poster who privately educated their children.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 10:31

Just noticed that Mayfield now has an advert at the top of this thread. Heh.

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 06/07/2023 10:44

Starmers bogey man focus on hatred towards private schools is entirely misguided and a cheap shot to appease far leftie views and fights in his own party. Being a moderate himself, he knows fully well the policy does not stack up in any shape or form, so he will of course, come across badly on this particular policy.

What is very urgent is making sure swim schools do not have to apply VAT. We live in a country surrounded by water. Locally we have several swim schools massively struggling and so many kids who cannot swim, especially post Covid. Why not get private schools to actually help even more with their pools rather than come up with a policy of hate?

https://www.sta.co.uk/news/2022/11/21/to-help-swim-schools-stay-afloat-sta-is-pushing-for-the-government-to-stamp-out-vat-from-learn-to-swim-lessons/

To Help Swim Schools Stay Afloat, STA is Pushing for the Government to STAmp-out VAT From ‘Learn to Swim’ Lessons – STA.co.uk

https://www.sta.co.uk/news/2022/11/21/to-help-swim-schools-stay-afloat-sta-is-pushing-for-the-government-to-stamp-out-vat-from-learn-to-swim-lessons/

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 10:49

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 06/07/2023 10:44

Starmers bogey man focus on hatred towards private schools is entirely misguided and a cheap shot to appease far leftie views and fights in his own party. Being a moderate himself, he knows fully well the policy does not stack up in any shape or form, so he will of course, come across badly on this particular policy.

What is very urgent is making sure swim schools do not have to apply VAT. We live in a country surrounded by water. Locally we have several swim schools massively struggling and so many kids who cannot swim, especially post Covid. Why not get private schools to actually help even more with their pools rather than come up with a policy of hate?

https://www.sta.co.uk/news/2022/11/21/to-help-swim-schools-stay-afloat-sta-is-pushing-for-the-government-to-stamp-out-vat-from-learn-to-swim-lessons/

Jesús. Just unbelievable VAT applies to these lessons.

LolaSmiles · 06/07/2023 10:49

Starmers bogey man focus on hatred towards private schools is entirely misguided and a cheap shot to appease far leftie views and fights in his own party. Being a moderate himself, he knows fully well the policy does not stack up in any shape or form, so he will of course, come across badly on this particular policy
I'm inclined to agree with you here.

The left is eating itself alive at the moment and it's costing them with the electorate.

With the Tories swinging to the right, and Labour still dealing with their internal squabbles, there's not a progressive and moderate voice for the majority of the electorate who will probably fall center right to centre left on most issues.

Starmer would be better off leaving the culture war issues alone and focus on making the party electable.

CaveMum · 06/07/2023 10:54

I still maintain that there is space for a Mumsnet Party - plenty of users across the country to field a candidate in every constituency; wide range of social, ethnic and financial backgrounds. Naturally J K Rowling would have to be party leader 😁

whodawhodaeho · 06/07/2023 10:59

‘I mean basically, on this, they are just lying. There is no way they can have any clue how much this will raise, if anything. ‘

that’s Irrelevant really. Should businesses claim ‘charity’ status when they are not charities? No.
Are ordinary people sick tax breaks and tax loopholes for the wealthy? Yes.
Even Conservatives recognise that giving charity status to schools that aren’t charities and cater to the very wealthy only is well overdue a change.

whumpthereitis · 06/07/2023 10:59

AdamRyan · 06/07/2023 07:59

Well in fact they are charities. Hence the VAT exemption and various tax perks.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/private-school-charity-status-labour/

A thorough breakdown of the points raised in that link can be found here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/575bd0a740f0b66bda00000e/The_Independent_Schools_Council_v_The_Charity_Commission_for_England___Wales_and_The_National_Council_for_Voluntary_Organisation__2__HM_Antorney_General_v_The_Charity_Com_and_The_ISC.pdf

What is commonly understood to be charity differs from the legal definition of the word.

this article also breaks down the main points:
https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2011/10/18/independent-schools-are-still-charities-says-tribunal/amp/

“Similarly, the word “poor” in this context does not mean destitute. In the discourse of charity law, a poor person is a person who cannot reasonably afford to meet a particular need by purchasing at the full cost price the service which it is the charity’s purpose to provide.”

“it is not possible to be prescriptive about the nature of the benefits which a school must provide to the poor nor the extent of them. It is for the charity trustees of the school concerned to address and assess how their obligations might best be fulfilled in the context of their own particular circumstances.”

SunnyEgg · 06/07/2023 11:02

whodawhodaeho · 06/07/2023 10:59

‘I mean basically, on this, they are just lying. There is no way they can have any clue how much this will raise, if anything. ‘

that’s Irrelevant really. Should businesses claim ‘charity’ status when they are not charities? No.
Are ordinary people sick tax breaks and tax loopholes for the wealthy? Yes.
Even Conservatives recognise that giving charity status to schools that aren’t charities and cater to the very wealthy only is well overdue a change.

that’s Irrelevant really

It’s really not. If the best people can do is agree they don’t have a clue and don’t mind the lying.. well it’s concerning for how it works in practise

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 06/07/2023 11:08

@Barbadossunset - if you want to look at wealth taxes, look at how Switzerland does it. It is implemented on a cantonal aka local authority level but on worldwide wealth, but rates differ massively between cantons (so Zurich, Basel, Geneva have much higher taxes, both income and wealth taxes, but smaller boring cantons have lower rates and special “deals” with billionaires so they pay an agreed rate). It is better to charge a lower rate consistently and it can be a great money maker. Billionaires should be paying a worldwide wealth tax at a low rate every year to which ever country they are domiciled in. Non dom status is ludicrous as well as basically allowing your capital city to be sold off to foreigners. It is really short sighted and our governments should have learnt from other countries. You cannot implement anything drastic to put off foreign investment but you do have to protect your own population and their housing needs or you are screwed long term. However, politicians don’t think long term, especially not in countries with centralised governments. I always follow Switzerland as a matter of principle, because it is fascinating how quickly they can implement changes given the power local authorities have (e.g. crackdowns on Air BNBs if the local areas are suffering). This is another digression - but look what is going on with VAPES in UK right now. Basically, companies making millions and millions at the expense of the health of teens en masse! And the government is not reacting quickly at all, again! https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/disposable-vapes-must-banned-says-27085836 Despite being told it is a huge issue really. I could show you a number of companies massively benefitting from the exploitation of teens in this regard, right now. People again making millions.

Where I live the builders and many professional economic migrants (lots from the Asian subcontinent) send their DC to the local private schools. Lots of yummy mummy middle class types shun those privates and move in to super comp catchments/do grammar/tutor on the side.
Basically, a large proportion of the intellectual British elite now refuses to pay up for some of the quite obscene amounts private schools charge, so I am not surprised we now have a political will to attack private schools. However, I think it is entirely pointless given the rise and trend of on the side tutoring anyway. As some people have pointed out, a lot of professionals using private schools are from households where both parents do work full time. So government needs to be very careful to not incentivise further part time working with their education policies. I am working part time still and managing the state ed and all the clubs etc on the side. If I worked full time and sent my DC to private school, government coffers would be much better off. That is a personal choice I made to prioritise those near and dear to me, but many of my colleagues are doing the latter. We do often question our original choice on both sides, but overall most people are happy.

As regards musical provision for gifted musicians - if you live in London with conservatoires everywhere, music festivals etc then you really don’t need to pay up for private school for music. Same applies to many sports -outside sports provision can be excellent. However, all of this is incredibly expensive and the domain of the well off parent. What we need is funding for gifted children from poorer backgrounds not just in the form of 1 or 2 bursaries. The whole GO FUND me concept is fascinating as well.

Money can definitely buy educational privilege, but it is definitely not limited to private schools.

Disposable vapes must be banned, says Children's Commissioner

Dame Rachel de Souza says children feel under pressure to vape

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/disposable-vapes-must-banned-says-27085836

whodawhodaeho · 06/07/2023 11:18

Any school worried about losing charity status could always actually do something about it and earn REAL charity status rather than abuse the current situation by giving 'bursaries' and discounts to families who don't need it.

whumpthereitis · 06/07/2023 11:22

whodawhodaeho · 06/07/2023 11:18

Any school worried about losing charity status could always actually do something about it and earn REAL charity status rather than abuse the current situation by giving 'bursaries' and discounts to families who don't need it.

Their charity status is real. They are required to adhere to the legal definition of charity. That clearly doesn’t meet your approval, but your approval isn’t one they are obliged to seek.

whumpthereitis · 06/07/2023 11:32

LolaSmiles · 06/07/2023 10:49

Starmers bogey man focus on hatred towards private schools is entirely misguided and a cheap shot to appease far leftie views and fights in his own party. Being a moderate himself, he knows fully well the policy does not stack up in any shape or form, so he will of course, come across badly on this particular policy
I'm inclined to agree with you here.

The left is eating itself alive at the moment and it's costing them with the electorate.

With the Tories swinging to the right, and Labour still dealing with their internal squabbles, there's not a progressive and moderate voice for the majority of the electorate who will probably fall center right to centre left on most issues.

Starmer would be better off leaving the culture war issues alone and focus on making the party electable.

I don’t envy Starmer at all tbh. I don’t think he’s a stupid man at all, but he’s having to walk a tightrope between diametrically opposed sections of the Labour Party, AND appeal to the wider electorate. He comes across as New Labour and a pragmatist, and that is something that is deeply hated by a not insignificant portion of the Labour base who would rather destroy the Labour Party than compromise on ideological purity. He knows if he wants to win an election decisively then he needs the Labour Party to at least appear to be united.

Tony Blair obviously led a Labour Party that was in a different condition, but he was also in possession of charisma and a force of personality that Keir Starmer lacks. Tony Blair won elections, Keir Starmer is relying on the Tories losing. There’s a difference.

Blossomtoes · 06/07/2023 11:42

AgathaSpencerGregson · 06/07/2023 10:23

As an aside, you do have to wonder, when you hear him speak, how he ended up a silk. i guess he was just better with someone else’s case …

As an aside you clearly haven’t heard him in PMQs on the odd occasions Sunak bothers to turn up. He chews Sunak up and spits the bones out.

SunnyEgg · 06/07/2023 11:44

whumpthereitis · 06/07/2023 11:32

I don’t envy Starmer at all tbh. I don’t think he’s a stupid man at all, but he’s having to walk a tightrope between diametrically opposed sections of the Labour Party, AND appeal to the wider electorate. He comes across as New Labour and a pragmatist, and that is something that is deeply hated by a not insignificant portion of the Labour base who would rather destroy the Labour Party than compromise on ideological purity. He knows if he wants to win an election decisively then he needs the Labour Party to at least appear to be united.

Tony Blair obviously led a Labour Party that was in a different condition, but he was also in possession of charisma and a force of personality that Keir Starmer lacks. Tony Blair won elections, Keir Starmer is relying on the Tories losing. There’s a difference.

I don’t know. When he says we’ve stress tested it and blisters I’m not getting clever vibes.

I agree on the difference between him and Blair though.

SunnyEgg · 06/07/2023 11:44

Blusters

Blossomtoes · 06/07/2023 11:45

Tony Blair won elections, Keir Starmer is relying on the Tories losing. There’s a difference.

You’ve clearly not heard the adage that oppositions never win elections, governments lose them. I’m surprised, it’s been around for a very long time.

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