AIBU to say private school children are much sportier & better musicians?

[Denimrevival]

Just on the back of comparing with friends & family with dc in private schools. The kids & their families are all naturally sporty & outdoorsy anyways but the school provides a vast range of sports with it's own pool & swim team.
Musically their kids all play 2 or three instruments all at least grade 4 or 5..
How do these private schools do the academics, music & sports to such a high standard? Do they also have a very good base if the kids are having sport & music reinforced outside school through their families lifestyles?

If you refer back to the OP's initial question it really does.

What is true however, is that the vast majority of the innovations in popular music over the past decades have not been created by the privately educated. British-born styles that have gone on to become highly popular worldwide, such as jungle, d n b, dubstep, grime, industrial, metal, hardcore and major elements of punk and post-punk, were created by kids that went to state schools and often lived on estates and have no “grades” on, say, the clarinet.

”Musicality” as defined by playing an orchestral instrument and being able to recite pre-written pieces of music to a certain technical standard, is the poor relation to proper creativity. For some it may be an enabler, but it’s not a requirement.

But, hey, it gives parents privately educating their kids something to boast about: that x has passed grade 3 on the oboe, or y worked terribly terribly hard to reach grade 2 on timpani.

My DS does every extra curricular activity available (his choice) LAMDA, instrument tuition, cricket, football, dance, drama etc and is active out of school. I think it is important if you are able to afford this and your child wants to do it.

All these are available at my local state primary so we are lucky.

It's very easy to know if a secondary school has a swimming pool or not, particularly if you are involved in swimming.

Actually there is one. It's a SEN school though.

It isn’t a private school thing, it’s a money thing. Wealthier parents have spare cash for music lessons or they play themselves because their parents had the money for it so they can teach their own DC.

It is partly the parents and the general environment in private schools which encourages achievements in these areas. The school itselt plays a moderate part in this but parents will be supplementing this outside of school. Eg musical instruments need regular (preferably daily) practice which will be done at home with parents (or nanny) having to supervise. Sports are often supplented out of school as parents and children feel the subtle pressure to keep up and stand a chance of being selected for team competition. The sportier children will be doing extra sports outside of school and then ‘rewarded’ with selection for teams or sports competitions by the school, hence providing the incentive to do extra out of school to get this. Similarly, with music, children who practice at home and progress in their musical instrument will be rewarded with the opportunity to perform in a school concert/recital.

All this can be achieved in many state schools with additional sports and music lessons arranged through after school clubs and out of school arrange musical instrument tuition on a private co-curricular basis. The difference is there is less pressure/expectation to do this so there will be fewer children putting in the extra time on these things.

Yes I am. The clubs here use the public pools of which there are plenty too.

I think private school makes it easier but parents with children who are seriously good at sport or music will still be running around doing it outside of school but the private school day allows for more opportunity to practice, be supported by peers etc.

Eg my outstanding state primary school is pretty good for sport. Can’t rival prep schools but has proper sports coaches in, competitive teams etc. It is woeful for music. You can take piano lessons but the waiting list is so long my daughter has never been accepted. No choir, music groups etc. Annoyingly I think my daughter is naturally suited to music rather than sport and so we’re doing everything outside of school which is a faff and probably more expensive than the lessons would be at a private school. That’s where it is pretty hard to replicate as time is a barrier even in circumstances where you can spend the money to top-up.

@GodessOfThunder are you going to answer my earlier question:
which sports do people care about - apart from football?

What are you on about, you know nothing about me, how would you possibly know that your life experiences have been worse than mine.

But I'm not preaching about inner city comps, I am and was referring to state schooling and private schooling, another poster, another champion of the private school experience, like you, is using hyperbole around the state school experience to deride and twist my arguments to suit your position. Nowhere did I say state school was justa about the inner city comp. I went to he biggest school in England that happened to produce some of the most violent criminals this country has ever seen, not going to reference them but it was certainly not easy. That said, as it was a state school it included an array of different people and backgrounds. The fact is you can be middleclass in a state school but have a very different experience to one in a private school. Why would you send your children to private school if in some way they weren't sheltered from that? Yes, of course abuse can happen at any school but again I never said that it couldn't, what I have an issue with is the insincerity - parents are buying a way out of some of this, there is a segregation of those who have money and those who don't - stop pretending this isn't at play and stop pretending that being middle class whatever setting results in the same experience for your children - it doesn't!

The question I answered was one about 'better musicians' I would say the evidence of amazing, the best musicians proves that this is not the case. At the end of the day I don't have a study on that as was asked to produce. Your insecurity about private school is not my problem

I mentioned it in my post already. At any real comparable scale, bar major televised tournaments: none.

Your point being?

I went to a private school and was neither sporty nor musical. HTH

Yes same here. None of those pools are at state schools though

Isn't Coldplay our most successful band?

Only read the 1st 5 pages but this issue had not been mentioned.

Whilst Music is a National Curriculum subject, many schools do not deliver anything like the hour per week that students are meant to receive. IMO, this is at least partially to do with the fact that Music/Art are not part of the EBacc. As schools are judged on results, the number of people achieving the EBacc is something they want to enhance, and by dropping Music/Art etc. more time can be devoted to EBacc subjects. In primary schools, Y6 often spend most of their time on SATs preparation, simply because schools are judged on those results. Music is edged out. Added to that, most primary teachers have not received a decent music education themselves, so feel anxious and unprepared teaching it, therefore it gets ignored. School budgets are so tight now that employing a specialist teacher is simply unaffordable. There are schemes designed for non-specialists but those I have looked at are largely tedious and formulaic without inspiring children.

What would I do to remedy the situation? Funding is a major issue, but that has been done to death on MN. Perhaps an OFSTED inspection should not be able to find a school outstanding or good unless Music/Sport are given parity with History or D&T.

I teach Music in a lovely state secondary school where it is a well-regarded and valued subject. Only last night I took a group of students out to perform in the community. Some of them receive individual lessons, many do not. Yes, those receiving individual lessons have an advantage. We don't have a county music service. We have a Hub that appears to have particular agendas which do not align with ours/mine. Our local primary school asked for some help which I gave willingly. Apparently the local Hub lead had "tried" to contact them to support them. I had no difficulty in getting hold of them, going in, listening to the SLT people, making some quick recommendations, then following this up with a more detailed response by email and an offer of ongoing support. I did it because I care, but the people receiving money to do this, namely the Hub are more interested in one-off events that they can crow about on social media. Heaven forbid one actually dares to offer constructive criticism; that results in vitriolic emails to my Head. Proudly sporting that T-shirt.

I have also recently done some work in another local primary school. Again, this school really values Music, allocating some of the Pupil Premium budget to it. However, the instrumental teachers were at best variable. A couple were inspirational teachers and practitioners. Two had no idea of how to teach or use correct techniques, meaning that when their pupils moved onto specialists, they had to unravel years of poor practice, a most disheartening experience.

My own state-educated DDs started learning instruments before they started primary school and had lessons privately with specialist teachers. Both DH and I think it is a vital skill, so we prioritised paying for this, swimming lessons and dance (both were desperate to learn ballet). We didn't bother with paid-for TV services like Sky or Netflix and had cheap mobile phone contracts to be able to afford it. Both DDs played in ensembles with peers who went onto conservatoires, Oxbridge music degrees etc, almost all of whom were state educated.

I am the only one who attended a private school. I was on a 100% scholarship so my parents only paid for uniform and lunches. The music there was rubbish by comparison to what I now deliver. The only practical work we did was singing. We only listened to music from the Baroque, Classical and early Romantic eras. It was dire. This week, my year 8s have listened to John Cage, Stockhausen and Kraftwerk in their class lessons as well as performing music from different film scores.

Some state schools do a great job. All would like to. Money makes a massive difference and right now, there is nothing spare in state schools. Perhaps if this corrupt , morally bankrupt and artistically illiterate government actually funded schools properly without imposing minimal staff pay-rises on already stretched budgets, the playing field might level. I despair that will ever happen.

Your point being?

Godess I’m not sure why it matters whether people care about sports or not.
I think it’s a good idea to try to produce good teams or players for competitions at all levels; plenty of people love playing sport - it’s good for their health and brings pleasure, so yes, people do care.

If no one cared then there wouldn’t be competitions or the Olympics or any effort to improve standards in all the numerous sports that people take part in.
I’m not interested in playing or watching sport (apart from the Olympics) but just because I’m not interested it doesn’t mean that other people aren’t.

I teach a musical instrument in a private school. The kids I teach are not better musicians than the other kids I teach outside of the school. But They just get one to one lessons, more contact time, and often have better quality instruments.
State school music lessons are often shared, and the teacher teaches a range of instruments. In some places the teacher is a brass player and teaches all woodwind and all brass for example.

As for sports, private school do tons of it and have much better facilities.

Private school days are very long and sometimes 6days a week, which is how they fit it all in.

Malbecfan did your students enjoy John Cage and Stockhausen?
My ds had musical appreciation (or whatever it’s called - learning about music but not learning an instrument) and the only thing he remembers from five years of weekly lessons was 4’33.

All this comparing bands and coolness and poverty competitiveness is coming across as a bit cringey.

Of course most private schools have better facilities and opportunities. That’s literally what is being funded. And of course the kids are not more innately talented. It’s about opportunity.

My friend never played music and said it was her dream for her kids to be musical. They were exposed to lots of lessons, Suzuki method etc from very very young. And both boys ended up brilliant on the violin. It was very much nurture, on the base of some natural skill probably.

I maintain that every kid is experiencing their own ‘real life’. And it’s bizarre to say that music is better from adults who have experienced shit childhoods. Who even defines what ‘good’ music is. We know it’s subjective!

Ideally every kid would get a decent education. Mine had exposure to sport and classical music at private school but weren’t interested and that’s fine. I am not bothered and never pushed them to do stuff they were not interested in. If they had been interested I would have cheered them on.

We turned down offers from schools with Saturday school as that was not what we wanted for our family life. My daughter and her friends are not sporty so would have hated Saturday sport anyway. Nothing to do with the school, but to do with their interests.

Ideally kids have opportunities and can then choose what suits them. They don’t have to be the best at music, sport or academic work if it is not their natural fit. There is nothing morally superior about being good at sport or music. But it’s wonderful if they can find something they enjoy. It’s much easier to work at something if you like doing it!

Read my post again: particularly the line about “innovations”.

Coldplay are a MOR rock band utterly lacking in anything approaching innovation.

If they are your poster boys for private school and musical innovation, I’m embarrassed for you.

@Barbadossunset they found the Cage interesting but didn't like the Stockhausen, although they loved the idea of aleatoric/chance music, something we will explore further. it prompted lots of questions, the opportunity to think deeply about what music actually is, and most surprisingly to me, the hearing-impaired student had tons to contribute.

Can't stand them. Just thinking about how you measure success I guess.

But I'm certainly not as desperate to appear cool as some on this thread so I'll admit I like The Scientist.

@Goldenbear my dc go to state school so I’m hardly championing private school here. I’m just pointing out that your assumption about creativity being borne out of adversity is rubbish.
I do know you or your life no. What I do know is that you also sit in a position of privilege and you demonise others who do.
You have spoken about the inner city comp in your posts so that is why I referred to it.
Of course private school children are shielded from the same disruption that happens in lots of state schools but you made a claim that they were not living in the real world. So what world are they living in?
Id be interested to learn about the musicians you like and what type of state schools they attended. There is a world of difference between them. State does not always equal terrible. In order to make it you have to have some leg up even if it’s a small one. Even having access to a guitar or place to be creative is out of the reach of some.
Some of the most creative and talented individuals I know come from the most disadvantaged areas of this country I agree with you. But it doesn’t mean they are in a world that is any more real than anyone else. It also doesn’t make their art better as that is subjective. I also know some crazy talented naturally creative people from private schools and middle class families.
I never said your life experiences were worse either. What I did say is I have more experience of others lives from every background than you and that is true.
Also just fyi I am not middle class and I’m not insecure about it , I live and work in the top ranked most disadvantaged and dangerous city in the country but that is irrelevant.

Good for her. I hope my daughter comes across her at SJ competitions 👍