to think they would feel differently if they had children?

[Violetbeauregardesgum]

Just reflecting that the three most vehemently pro-abortion, abortion on demand up till 40 weeks women I know are all child free. Was talking to one the other day and was taken aback by how uncompromising she was. The 32 week old baby that the woman was imprisoned for aborting was not a baby, all women have the right to end a pregnancy at any point.

I am pro choice but think the 24 week cut off is about right. AIBU to think they would feel differently if they had gone through a pregnancy to term themselves?

No, I am talking about drawing a line at a certain point in pregnancy where there are no medical indications for termination.

So are you saying there is a market for “normal” babies and therefore if you are pregnant with a non defective baby you should be forced to supply that market? You seem to be viewing women as baby carrying machines with no feelings of their own.

So to me a whatever right to life a foetus may or may not have does not take precedence over the right of woman who is carrying it to have autonomy over her body and she should be able to choose not to continue the pregnancy.
In the case the foetus isn’t viable to survive outside the womb then if the woman chooses not to continue the pregnancy the baby can’t survive. In the case the pregnancy has progressed to the point the foetus has every possibility of surviving in case the woman carrying it is induced then I’m unconvinced the right of the woman to say I no longer want a baby should mean that the baby is terminated before being delivered. I think in that specific scenario the foetus’ right to life should be considered and weighed up against the woman’s right to want to not be a mother. I do think it’s a straw man argument though. Currently women can abort up to 24 weeks yet the vast majority of abortions (over 90%) are before 13 weeks and only 1% are above 20 weeks. If the law were changed to allow abortion to term there is no evidence to support the idea it would suddenly result in many people having late term abortions.

Termination later in the pregnancy for medical reasons is also very rare (thankfully as it’s pretty horrific for any family that needs to go through it). Less than 300 late term abortions were carried out in latest year with records published.

I would like to see the current law changed to make it clear a woman has a right to choose not to continue a pregnancy for any reason vs having to meet the criteria they do now. I think it’s reasonable and balanced to put a time limit on that and apply some conditions beyond it but ultimately that making the legislation less restrictive overall would make things more straightforward for women who need to access an abortion and likely result in even less abortions happening over 20 weeks.

We see it differently. To me, a deaf child and a hearing child are equal in terms of their rights to live. If terminating one is murder, then the other is too.

I'm sorry to hear about your baby's difficulties and a bit shocked that someone has suggested that you could have terminated your pregnancy had you known beforehand

The big problem with this discussion is that there is very little actual information about the terminations carried out after 24 weeks. There aren't even figures published and even less information about the reasons. It's more like a collection of anecdotes

Some are almost certainly TFMRs that have overrun the time time limit for various reasons and some are like the example I gave due to a late diagnosis and/or conflicting investigations

No, obviously not, because women in the UK have about five months to act if they don't want to "supply that market".

They have six whole weeks longer than women in Sweden, ten weeks longer than women in France and twelve weeks longer than women in Ireland to make that decision.

There are multiple people whose lives and rights need to be weighed up, and how challenging the child will be to care for does change that balance.

It's great that you believe disabled children are equal to able bodied children in terms of their rights. I do too. How many disabled children have you adopted? Because I haven't adopted any.

The woman has to birth the 30 week old baby dead or alive surely, so how is this a choice about women’s pain when the discussion is late term abortions?

I haven’t read past this comment, but like the op I cannot understand how any mum who has held a 30 week old baby can support it being ok to have killed it instead.

Also it really needs to be highlighted, no matter how inconvenient, that the majority of terminated pregnancies have come about through consensual sex with no or improperly used contraception. Calling women ‘baby machines in the eyes of the country’ is ridiculous - the country isn’t impregnating them, they (in conjunction with a man) are impregnating themselves. If anything the state seems to be trying to discourage women from becoming baby machines with free contraception, one of the latest abortion time limits in the world, and astronomically expensive childcare. If you think there is any kind of appetite in the U.K. to ‘force women to have babies’ then we’re going the wrong way about it aren’t we! Putting an ideological or religious spin on it may suit a narrative but has zero basis in reality when you step back and look at the facts.

Women labouring to deliver a baby that is no longer alive can and do receive more pain relief as there is no risk to the baby

All of this.

The idea that the UK government is trying to force women to give birth is absolutely ludicrous.

Also it really needs to be highlighted, no matter how inconvenient, that the majority of terminated pregnancies have come about through consensual sex with no or improperly used contraception.

Why does that need to be highlighted? So what? How the foetus came to be there should have no relevance to whether or not you think abortion should be allowed, unless you think pregnancy/birth/childrearing are a punishment for women for having consensual sex. What happens in an abortion happens the same whatever the circumstances in which the foetus came to be there.

It is relevant in the context of people claiming that women are being forced to give birth, in a country with free contraception on demand and some of the most liberal abortion laws in the world.

It does sound like that poster wants to punish women for having sex.

Totally totally agree with this, it's actually a relief to see some sense.

Pro choice has been hijacked by feminist extremists. At this rate we will have newborn babies being killed when mothers decide they don't want to parent them, because it's their baby, their choice.

'pregnancy/birth a punishment for consensual sex' what nonsense! It's an outcome, an outcome that women are aware of and can do something to prevent in our very liberal country.

Which poster?

It's not really about having sex though, is it? Or about what individual posters want.

I would agree that a country which makes it difficult for women to access contraception and abortions probably wants, on some level, to punish women for having sex. Just like a country or culture which practises FGM wants to prevent women from enjoying sex.

But in the UK a woman can have as much sex as she likes, with as many partners as she likes, and has multiple options available to her to prevent herself from getting pregnant in the first place, and to prevent herself from getting to the 24 week cut off point if she accidentally does.

Have you adopted any children? The vast majority of people want their own biological child and don’t want to adopt. With advances in infertility treatment, adoption will become rarer and rarer.

Yes, I know, I made that point myself several pages ago.

But then surely the same argument applies? We don’t force mothers of disabled children to give birth and adopt because we know that there are very few willing parents to take them on. But if we know that prospective parents don’t want to adopt children without disabilities either, why force these women to give birth?

💯 this

So are you saying there is a market for “normal” babies and therefore if you are pregnant with a non defective baby you should be forced to supply that market? You seem to be viewing women as baby carrying machines with no feelings of their own.

Interesting that's it's only you referring to disabled babies as abnormal and defective.

It's about the quality of life that child might have. How that disability might limit their life. Their parents choosing to spare them suffering.

People who think abortion til term is unacceptable are hardly jumping for joy at disabled babies being terminated. It's a very sad event but it's seen is justified on balance.

For the future child and allowing the parents appropriate time to have diagnostic tests and make a decision.

Women labouring to deliver a baby that is no longer alive can and do receive more pain relief as there is no risk to the baby

Epidural?

Whichever way you give birth (whether from termination or live) you cannot avoid the reality of birth.

She will bleed. She will have milk. She may have tears. She may have pain down below. She may have stretch marks.

I can assure you that my severely disabled child has good quality of life and isn’t suffering. He’s seems very glad to be alive. However those who support the current law believe that he has less rights to life because he could have been aborted to term but his non-disabled brother had that right to life at 24 weeks.

Those saying that birth is where the line should be drawn, I think are hugely downplaying the impact of a late term abortion on the mother.
When a mother suffers PND immediately after birth and doesn't want her baby or wants to kill it (not totally rare with PND) she is offered support, counselling and help and very often comes through it and loves her baby.
If you allow a full term mother to kill her own baby just before it is born you are setting her up for a lifetime of trauma. She is already a mother, her baby is already there, fully developed, able to survive, she will have to birth it one way or another. It either comes out dead or alive. How would one know how much of an impact pre natal depression or hormones are having on her mental health, or whether she might totally change her mind when holding and meeting her baby,