to think they would feel differently if they had children?

[Violetbeauregardesgum]

Just reflecting that the three most vehemently pro-abortion, abortion on demand up till 40 weeks women I know are all child free. Was talking to one the other day and was taken aback by how uncompromising she was. The 32 week old baby that the woman was imprisoned for aborting was not a baby, all women have the right to end a pregnancy at any point.

I am pro choice but think the 24 week cut off is about right. AIBU to think they would feel differently if they had gone through a pregnancy to term themselves?

I felt much more strongly pro-choice after having my children. The alternative is forced birth and going through a pregnancy and birth shows you how bad that would be.

Even if one doesn't think abortion should happen after a certain point in pregnancy, I don't see that imprisoning the women who very occasionally have illegal late abortions helps anyone. They are often in desperate circumstances, or mentally ill, or have learning difficulties, or are just hopelessly ignorant about the law and pregnancy. No-one is going to be better off from their punishment.

That's a very interesting point I'd never considered, after a certain point there is no forcing to give birth, it's going to happen anyway. So has the mother a right to end its life if healthy, not wanting to be a parent isn't a sufficient reason as they don't have to be.

Cases like this are why it is black and white for me too.

I agree OP but I am against all abortion for all reasons at all times.

Whether or not they would feel differently if they had children is entirely beside the point. Unless of course you are saying that only the opinions of those with children should be taken into account.

What I struggle to understand about this thread is the vast majority of people choosing to pass judgement on a situation they couldn’t even begin to imagine themselves in.

I think you’ve pinpointed exactly what makes me so uneasy on this thread. So many people with absolutely no empathy.

I can’t even begin to imagine how a teenage girl who has covered up a pregnancy but now run out of time feels. Or a woman who hadn’t been able to access medical care because of her abusive partner. Or someone whose coil failed but they weren’t having periods so didn’t realise they were even pregnant. But I know that these people exist and they may not be able to get abortions on time and may need them desperately.

And don’t even get me started on the people who go on about the foetus’ right to live once it gets to a certain gestation unless of course it’s disabled. Why is a disabled foetus worth less? Don’t they feel pain? I’m bringing up two disabled children and it’s not exactly a walk in the park but their lives aren’t worth less. And the only way to share the circle is to deny everyone abortion after a certain point or no one.

Just to clarify.

All reasons including incompatible with life, woman's life at risk, incest, rape, ectopic pregnancy?

I actually disagree and wish that choice had been taken away or at least challenged. I had no concept of the decision I was making, I had no education around it, I couldn't possibly know what to expect or how it would effect me, and this was a first trimester abortion. I'm not suggesting I don't believe in first trimester abortions, but the fact it was so easy to get one and that my reasoning was never even discussed with a doctor or counsellor let alone challenged, definitely meant I made the wrong choice for me. it's become so normal now to see pro lifers as woman haters and pro choicers as feminists, well I feel totally differently, so it isn't black and white.

This pro choice crusade that denies that a baby is a baby until birth isn't doing anyone any favours at all, I find it sickening to read how blase people are about a baby's life only mattering once it is born and not a moment before.

I’d be interested to know too. I haven’t been on that board much as don’t find being childfree in and of itself something that interests me much, but I have skimmed quite a few threads. The only one I saw that comes close to what is being described was labelled lighthearted and described children as ‘annoying’. Pretty mild stuff.

I also noticed that on that thread it was childfree posters self-censoring anything negative, despite the fact many parents on here cheerfully admit to finding other people’s kids irritating and unappealing. I have to say I’m not sure why the childfree only must be censored from expressing similar views.

Also seen plenty of derailing on the threads about who can post where.

In short, I’m not seeing this avalanche of sniping about parents and children that some posters insist is happening.

People who believe abortion shouldn't be legal past the time of viability, are you saying you think c-sections or inductions of labour should be available at that point instead? Since the baby is able to live its own life without any further need to use the mothers body or risk any detriment to her health?

If so, that's an interesting and logical perspective I hadn't considered before. But I do suspect that's not what you're suggesting.

Ah I see your point!

And if there aren't 100s of women wanting late term abortions for spurious reasons why is as late as necessary an issue?

In that case, what's wrong with the law as it stands?

Yes I’d like to know this as well.

@Meeting ALL reasons? In my home town a disabled 12 year child with learning difficulties in a foster home was raped by a relative of the foster parents. She became pregnant and luckily in my country abortion is legal. Now this is an extreme case but it did happen, but you obviously think this child having an abortion was wrong.

In that case, why not remove the law?

Many people think this. It's the main reason why people say 'its going to come out anyway- dead or alive'.

The arguments against are that the father's can get involved etc.

In short, I’m not seeing this avalanche of sniping about parents and children that some posters insist is happening

I'm sure they'll post links when they get around to it 😄

@Meeting

In cases like ectopic pregnancies, where it is to save the mothers life, what is the advantage to the baby, of continuing the pregnancy. It's not possible for the baby to survive, so why sacrifice the mother?

There are people on the thread advocating for changing the law as it stands on the basis that as late as necessary, and that necessary being medical, is wrong

You have described how I feel better than I could!

Me too. Have three children. One an adult now. Love them to bits, best thing I have done… but gosh, I struggled with my mental health after baby 1, and during pregnancy 2.
It’s different for every woman, every pregnancy, and bodily autonomy is exactly that.

I absolutely agree with everything you’ve said.

I also feel frustrated with the repeated use of examples of baby’s born prematurely and even extremely prematurely (24-32 weeks) now being healthy adults etc, they are only now healthy adults due to extreme and usually very invasive medical input, they did not in the majority of cases thrive immediately.

There will never be hoards of women needing or wanting late term terminations. But the fact that people so detached from the situations that may drive a woman to this and therefore feel they can confidently assert their judgement and opinions is frankly sickening. In my opinion If you’re not the person seeking the late term abortion, nor the medical professionals involved then you do not have a right question.

There's also ethical arguments against that too, especially when talking about as early as 24 weeks.

Is it right to induce labour or perform a c-section as early at 24 weeks with no medical reasons?
Is it right to potentially cause suffering?
Would it be kinder to perform an abortion?
Who is going to adopt a very premature baby? Especially if they have severe health issues?

I don’t think late term abortion should be legal apart from in situations where the mother’s life is at risk or the pregnancy is not viable or if the pregnant woman/girl can’t meaningfully consent to being pregnant (I think late term abortions are already legal in these circumstances right?) but I feel so sorry for the woman who must have been in a desperate situation. She has said she regrets it so I think the idea she didn’t want the baby is over-simplistic, from what I read at the time I think she was afraid of the consequences of having the baby. It seems like the justice system isn’t capable of the compassion or mercy to deal with desperate women. The reason she got penalised by the judge didn’t even make sense, because she didn’t plead guilty earlier to a worse crime or something? Ridiculous.

I think you should be able to. I had to deliver at 36 weeks because of pre-eclampsia but I would have delivered earlier if I was allowed. The last bit of pregnancy was hell and DS stopped growing because I was so ill. Their obsession with trying to get you to 37 weeks is not always the best for you & the baby, plus I think it’s just a matter of autonomy… not trying to harm the baby just not wanting to be pregnant anymore.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that there should be limitations on abortion. We all know that ending a pregnancy before 10 weeks (which is thankfully when the vast majority of abortions take place in the UK) is vastly different to ending a pregnancy in the second or third trimester, anyone who argues that it isn't is lying to themselves. For people who argue that a foetus at 24 weeks is not a baby, I would like to hear you say that to my friend who gave birth to her baby at 24 weeks, as I guarantee she would not take too kindly to you dehumanising her child in that way. For those of you who argue that there should be no limits on abortion...you do realise that a baby born at 37+ weeks on one day, was the same baby a day earlier when they were in the womb? I know everyone on here would argue that a baby who has been born full term should be loved, cared for and protected..so why would it be OK to end their life when they are still in the womb?

Parenthood is extremely hard. I know I will be extremely unpopular in saying this but there should be limits on abortion.

I think that once you've got to 24 weeks you should have to see it through until the end.

It's three months for you, or potentially a lifetime of health problems for a baby delivered prematurely without a medical reason.