to think they would feel differently if they had children?

[Violetbeauregardesgum]

Just reflecting that the three most vehemently pro-abortion, abortion on demand up till 40 weeks women I know are all child free. Was talking to one the other day and was taken aback by how uncompromising she was. The 32 week old baby that the woman was imprisoned for aborting was not a baby, all women have the right to end a pregnancy at any point.

I am pro choice but think the 24 week cut off is about right. AIBU to think they would feel differently if they had gone through a pregnancy to term themselves?

Women with children have known what it’s like to not have children so I do think we’re more qualified to compare the two situations. You can rant all you like but it’s true.

And if there aren't 100s of women wanting late term abortions for spurious reasons why is as late as necessary an issue?

There aren't 100s of women committing infanticide either but we still have laws against it.

If women aren't wanting late term abortions for spurious reasons then the current laws will accommodate their medical needs so why change it?

For the record, I agree the number of women seeking to terminate a healthy late pregnancy is probably minute, however those who advocate 'as late as necessary' act like aborting late term is a totally neutral act which will have no detrimental consequences for the woman. On this thread people have talked about birth injuries, post-natal depression, forced birth, etc like a termination will negate all that - it's misleading and actually quite damaging.

It shouldn't be a case of abort or go full term. I'm totally against forced pregnancy, if a woman decides at 35 weeks she doesn't want to be pregnant then I'm good with her making that decision. Her pregnancy can end without killing the child though.

There was a woman imprisoned the other day for killing her full term baby as soon as it was born. Do people who are happy for 40 week babies to be aborted OK with her? She claimed she didn't know she was pregnant.

One of the questions I have is:

If you believe abortions should be available right the way up: What's your view if a woman goes for abortion, but the baby comes out breathing and compatible with life? Is it okay to kill the baby then, or should then all stops be brought out to keep the baby alive?

I struggle with abortion. I don't think it should be outlawed, but I do wonder at what point do we say this is a baby rather than a not-a-baby. I don't know. 24 weeks was the earliest a baby could survive at one point. It's now earlier, but a high proportion of babies born at 24 week either don't survive or have serious disabilities, so I'm not sure that we should move it earlier.

I also think that sometimes it's kinder to not keep throwing medical procedures on a baby in desperation to keep them alive whatever. I suspect if I was in that situation I would want to keep going with anything offered though, so maybe I'm being hypocritical there. There would always be the hope in me that if they were still alive then maybe something more could be done. That's about me though. Maybe it's more loving not to do that.

The late abortions for medical reasons, I totally understand the reasoning, but again, I'm uncomfortable. This is mostly because my daughter was born missing a hand. I know two people who discovered this at a late scan (after 30 weeks) and were offered abortions on medical grounds.
Almost all children born missing a hand have nothing else wrong with them and lead a full life. My daughter is about to do her grade 8 trumpet, coaches gym, drives a car etc. Why does society think that is so bad it would be better not to live?

I think it's a complicated debate that can never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. It's almost more a case by case basis, but that again wouldn't work.

What I really wouldn't want to see is the situations there have been, where people have to go to other parts of the world or access backstreet places.
Nor do I want to see the situation where unwilling parents are bringing up unwanted children.

What's the answer?
I don't know.

Sorry I was hasty and see my point was made many times over 🫠

I agree with you op, I also didn't realise this meant I wasn't pro choice.

24 weeks is reasonable, any later is killing a fully formed baby and I can't find it in me to be comfortable with that.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the one mixing things up unless you put your post on completely the wrong thread!

Having children made me more fiercely protective of a woman’s rights not to be pregnant if she doesn’t want to be.

They do this week. How strange that we've had a rash of these threads now the childfree board is up and running.

I have changed my mind on late term abortions since having a baby. Pro-choice in the first 2 trimesters but from 3rd trimester onwards they are basically just an inside person! They’ve got a little face, they can move about, play around, they can survive outside the womb… also if the abortion goes wrong they could be born alive with lifelong medical conditions or disabilities they wouldn’t otherwise have had… so yeah I’m pro-choice but the decision has to be made in the first 2 trimesters. (This is assuming there’s no medical reason to terminate a pregnancy in the 3rd trimester of course, I mean an otherwise healthy, thriving baby).

They are trolls, I think. OP could have just started a thread on late abortions without dragging child free women into it.

To be honest the childfree board quickly and predictably descended into parent-bashing so I think we have to accept that unfortunately people across the spectrum just seem to like judging everyone else’s life choices and rise above it.

This whole black and white approach to abortion is unhelpful and totally screwed up.

To the extreme pro life people, someone who would allow abortion for the first few weeks, or to save the mothers life, would be pro choice (and monsters)

To the extreme pro choice people, you've got to agree with abortion on demand to term or they are pro life (and monsters).

Most people are somewhere in between, and don't see it as quite so black and white. Thank goodness.

@neveradullmoment99 they sound nice!:)

and saying meh, just adopt you'll have to give birth anyway dismisses how adoption is anything but simple and can also have detrimental consequences for the woman.

Which is why it should be the woman's choice.

I remember when a family member had a late-ish stage still birth. Oh I have never heard of anything so sad and traumatic. She said 'all that pain and it's for worse than nothing'.

Can a woman really avoid post-birth physical and mental health issues by opting to terminate at later stages? She must still give birth anyway. I think I'm someone who does understand late stage abortion for babies with severe disabilities, but I get off that pro-choice bus at the stop where healthy, late stage babies are ended.

I didn't realise pro-choice was so divided. Ah well, the conversation is a good one to have anyway, I appreciate knowing the different pov.

I’m childfree by choice and am vehemently pro-choice in at least large part because I’ve always felt so strongly about not wanting to be pregnant and not wanting a child. Not just at a particular time or under certain circumstances, but ever. I feel so fortunate to have been born in a time and place where I have that choice and would never take it for granted.

So I don’t find it surprising that you have noticed this. You’re possibly looking at it the wrong way: it’s not that your friends are lacking some insight because they’ve never given birth, but that their perspective is that of someone who holds very dear the right not to do so.

Her baby was born. That's the difference.

This. I always considered myself pro-choice, and felt really quite strongly about that, but I think there's a big difference in terminating a pregnancy at 16 weeks for example than at 32 weeks when a baby is more than capable of surviving and could be adopted etc.

MN has made me realise that means I'm not pro-choice, but I'm not exactly for "forced" childbirth either and would never consider myself a pro-lifer.

There has to be some middle ground in the terminology we use, surely?

Hilarious. You started the thread then flounce off when people don't agree with you.

Grow up.

Wow conversations about wills, where to go on holiday, how to cope after infertility and what we are getting up to this week is parent bashing?

Given how vehemently you were against the childfree board I doubt you would have ever seen our innocuous posts as anything but parent bashing though to be honest

Same

I was happily married, solvent, housed and employed when I had my DC, and it was still a worrying time that threw my life off kilter.

Thinking about doing all that with no job/an abusive partner/no safety net/risking family alienation gives me terrors and makes me an avid supporter of the right of women to do what’s best for them

This. Could you link to some parent bashing threads, because I've certainly never seen one.

Completely agree with you, nothing made me more pro choice than becoming a mum to a much wanted child.