To think that given many of the threads on MN at the moment we women need to give ourselves a good shake and take a long hard look at our attitudes to our roles as mothers and wives???

[SmileysPeeple]

I've just been on threads with women sniping at each other about whose 'right' or the 'best' mother re SAHM and WOHM (on childminder thread) and thread with crap husband who won't get up and help ill wife, thread about 'oh indulgent me staying in bed till 9am'.

WTF is going on??

I would neber have labelled myself a feminist but I'm now thinking of becoming one.

Don't we want women (and therefire motheres) to have choices availbale and to exercise those choices?

Then WHY do we find it so hard to acceopt that we will ineveitably make differmnt choices from each other?

Can we not accept that mothers can be/have the right to be as indulgent and selfish sometimes as any man/father/single women?

can we not see that by moaning but doing nothing about our roles as put upon wives makes us complit in setting up that very expectation??

maybe just a bad morning for me on MN, but has made up want to SCREAM!!

sorry, typing too fast! Should have read:

No it's not happening at the moment, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to make matters better (which is what you originally said).

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thats what legislation is there for imo...and it can't go one forever!...I'm damned if some bloke is gonna be paid more than me for doing the same job...that is taking the piss!...and it has changed Pussin alot in comparison to the past...and I want it to keep changing I have 2 DDs and I want their lives to be fair...this is not about differences...if I'm doing the same job I get the same pay..simple

I didn't mean accept it in the sense of lie back and let men have more pay than us, so apologies there - I didn't communicate that very well...I meant more from the persepective that men and woman are different as human beings so in that respect we can't be equal and for some women, accepting that would make things a lot easier for them....

I know what I mean I'm just not communicating it very well...

Perspective rather!

I'm fully aware of the point of equality but I just don't think on a day to day level that is how it makes people feel. It's a personal thing I guess but I feel that for me and how I see it in my life (please bear in mind I am only talking about me and my experience - no rights and wrongs!) it is more often than not used as a stick with which to beat me with more than anything else. Even the word feminist is used in a derogatory term a lot of the time.

I can't see how things like discrimination and pay gaps are going to stop unless we stop having children. Maybe saying we should accept that things aren't going to be equal is not exactly the right wording but we have to accept the facts are that we are different. Women having children whilst in employment is never going to be great for a business, that's a fact that is going to take lots to change so we either need to fight this or accept it. Because it feels to me like feminist limbo at the moment!

I know what you mean PIJC but I can't seem to articulate it either! I'm going to blame late pregnancy tiredness

Sorry for the hijack - seem to have deviated a little from OP.

Heels - you articulate the point far better than I, in my non pregnant state, am doing so don't worry!

I think women should support other women's choices, even if they disagree with them ie you can disagree without condemning a woman as a terrible mother, just because you have made different choices. No need for names or damnations to Hades!

Feminism is an interesting one. Personally I think the original feminists didn't go far enough. I don't think feminism is about being exactly the same as a man, it's about having more choices in life, so if one woman does 'want it all' with a glittering career, children and the perfect house, she should not be damned by other women, or herself, as being selfish etc OR if another woman wants to stay at home and be subservient to her OH then that's fine too - as it's her choice how can I condemn her? Or if a woman doesn't want children then she's not weird or strange, she's just made a different but valid choice!

I knew a woman who did EVERYTHING for her DH, from all childcare and household duties to laying out his clothes and pants for the next day. She was not downtrodden (or a perfectionist) but just viewed the homemaking stuff as her job and one she loved - plus she loved that DH earned enough for her to be able to choose not to work outside the home.

Her choice, not mine, but I was insanely jealous she could stay at home!

Maybe as women we get a bit too competitive, after all it's not a competition (is it?)

bb99 - good post! I think a lot of this competitiveness between women stems from feeling inadequate in the choices we've made ourselves, or things we've had to do not through choice etc. I frequently inwardly hiss and spit at women who after having their first child, seem to cope marvellously, lose weight, go to groups etc...when really I should be thinking well that's her life, her choice - no need to get green eyed over it because it makes me feel inadequate and because I'd like to be one of those effortless women!

I remember DH's friend's wife being quite smug that my DS still has a dummy. I just shrugged it off with a oooh its fab, if they wake at 4am needing comfort, put a dummy in and away they go...but inwardly was seething at the smugness. Then when I found out via DH that she gives her DS fruit shoots...well, the smugness practically radiated out of my arse....

Where to stop the judging??

My DH is doing the ironing watching the rugby tonight!
My flabber is a bit gasted though - he doesn't normally do the ironing.
Sorry if this is a bit of an aside....

I think this country and the world attitude needs to change...business can be profitable with working mothers with help and support if they choose that path...the family and children are unappreciated and seen as a hinderance!...they are the friggin future if we all stopped having children who would be here to continute businesses?...who gave birth to those men?..I believe we all make choices...but some things in life are fundamental and children are one of those things...this country is already dying...I hope we can see this before it's too late...this isn't even just about womens choices anymore it's about survival imo

Wordsmith - ahh, but we shouldn't be flabbergasted if our Dh's do the ironing should we.....it should be a normal occurence....

Mind you, if I went and checked the oil level in the car I think DH would faint....

I think it's easy to get things out of proportion. You have to remember that MN isn't RL, and people use it for all kinds of reasons. For a lot of people, it's an evening's entertainment and diversion if the TV is crap, or DP/DH is out and kids are in bed. I try to take this into account when I feel people are being provocative on a thread, and realise part of them may be looking for a bit of a scrap to get stuck into. Of course, an awful lot of MN is VERY constructive - Mum's posting for advice on specific issues, and on the whole getting great and sisterly advice. It's generally only the AIBU threads that kick off, because someone has sat around wondering what might be an "entertaining" and possibly controversial subject to post on. If MN's are really upset or hurt by what they read, they can just shut down or not come back to the thread. Everyone who joins in is getting something out of the argument. I was very involved in the first night of that bloody CM/SAHM/WOHM thread, and I was angered by it, but enjoyed the chance to put my side of the debate over. I thought it was a chance to open the poster's eyes to another perspective on her gripe. It didn't work, it rarely does, so I didn't go back and post further, though I have continued to read with a mixture of amusement an admiration for the eloquent way many posters manage to put across their POV. Makes me realise how many smart and funny women there are out there, regardless of their opinions. Don't let it get to you - it's NOT REAL LIFE, and generally we are a lot more polite to each other when not typing onto a faceless screen to a faceless person.

i totally agree with the OP actually. But for me its the other way around, i used to label myself as a feminist, but now i dont want to be one anymore. Because it seems to me that to do that, i have to make the choice to be a ball breaking, man hating, WOHM. Which is fine, i am a SAHM just now and am made to feel guilty for it, but OTHER WOMEN!!!! One day, maybe soon i will go back to work, and be made to feel guilty about it by OTHER WOMEN!!!!

mine got the hoover out tonight - I thought 'oh mi god!' Praise be to allah..

..his friend came round and said his wife is going back to work full time after 7 yrs so he has to be a part-time house husband. they were discussing the benefits of induction hobs ..

I fainted again

Rebel - my DH is a SAHD! (passing you smelling salts0.

the times they are a changin ..