To think that given many of the threads on MN at the moment we women need to give ourselves a good shake and take a long hard look at our attitudes to our roles as mothers and wives???

[SmileysPeeple]

I've just been on threads with women sniping at each other about whose 'right' or the 'best' mother re SAHM and WOHM (on childminder thread) and thread with crap husband who won't get up and help ill wife, thread about 'oh indulgent me staying in bed till 9am'.

WTF is going on??

I would neber have labelled myself a feminist but I'm now thinking of becoming one.

Don't we want women (and therefire motheres) to have choices availbale and to exercise those choices?

Then WHY do we find it so hard to acceopt that we will ineveitably make differmnt choices from each other?

Can we not accept that mothers can be/have the right to be as indulgent and selfish sometimes as any man/father/single women?

can we not see that by moaning but doing nothing about our roles as put upon wives makes us complit in setting up that very expectation??

maybe just a bad morning for me on MN, but has made up want to SCREAM!!

Heffa, i think you have hit the nail on the head because i believe that with the anonymity of MN / the internet, people do feel they can be more strident in their views and worry less about others' feelings. In real life, half the people wouldn't respond in anything like the same fashion that they do on here, most of the time!

I agree with everything on this thread. I don't post often but I read every day and I'm shocked at the level of berating and telling offs MN give each other. Don't you think a lot of us take ourselves too seriously sometimes too? I'm sure it's because we don't have much 'community' anymore. Wouldn't people 50 years ago have talked to their neighbours / mums / sisters about this stuff and quickly have been told to get a grip or given swift advice and resolved it. I'm not saying the 'get a grip' thing worked as many women were repressed and miserable I know but IMO some of the posters need to put things in perspective. I think getting support re feeding etc is cool but to get lanced / or lance yourself about cleaning? If you're parenting aren't you meant to be too busy to mop? I'm a lazy cow whose mission in life is to avoid cleaning though so any excuse. I think if you're unhappy and frustrated etc by all means come & vent on a post but don't attack / project it onto others!

Agree with OP about it being unnecessary to have a go just because someone does something different to oneself.

However, I am often staggered by threads from posters who are, apparently, subservient to their husbands. Who do ALL the childcare and housework. Who think it's OK for their husbands/partners to control them. Sometimes you'd think feminism never happened.

I don't have a go at them but I do shake my head and think 'have I wondered into the 1950s, somehow?'.

Are there subservient wives posting on MN? Perhaps I don't read enough posts - hadn't noticed...

that's sad

Edam, that was also the point I was making in my OP.

Women this morning was complaining that she was ill and Dh lying in all morning.

Another one mentioned getting a telling off from her Dh as she hadn't kept on top of the housework.

These thongs do take me aback. That combined with the sniping at eachothers life choices re working or not, makes me, like you, think did feminism never happen?

I'd hoped we might have rechead a stage where women, including mothers, couls make choices, support in each other in our choices and not subscribe to a subserviant role as mothers andwi9ves/partners.

But apparently not.

well, it's a tricky one. I would describe myself as a feminist (because I don't think we have equality with men and until we do, I will describe myself as a feminist because I think there are battles to be fought and won).

One the one hand I agree that we all (not just mners but the world in general) are very good at beating wives, mothers, partners, women in general with sticks. We beat ourselves up enough over our decisions, and threads like the childminder one DO make me want to scream and rant.

But on the other hand, part of feminism is upholding the belief that women can fight, and argue their point, and hold and defend passionate beliefs. Our daughters are taught to be "nice" and "not quarrel" and "be friends" and are ticked off when they answer back in class and question their elders. Would we really want a board of people bowing and scraping and falling over each other not to offend?

I guess it's a question of, much as I detest some of the posts on this board, I would defend to the death their right to post their bigotted, smug tosh! I just reserve the right to respond with a when I read it.

I think the sooner we accept that men and women can never be equal, things would be a lot better! That is not to say that men are better than women, or vice versa - we are just different! All this being equal bollox just makes it 10 times harder for women imo!

I don't think that mothers do have the right to be as indulgent as single/childless men and women. But I, sure as hell, think they have the right to be as indulgent and selfish as men.

But I do not always see this bearing out in my own family life. And I think the fault is largely with me, and the need for perfection, as exemplifed this weekend, when I am running around organising DS's birthday parties, while DH is happily off test driving his potential next company car this morning and playing golf tomorrow morning. But other than to keep DD out of my hair, he is not really needed because he wouldn't do it right..... Although once he gets back from golf and DD goes to bed and I have finished the prep, I will have him running round with the hoover and mop.

pussinjimmychoos, not sure what your post has to do with the OP but equal doesn't mean not different, equal means having the same rights and access to the same opportunities. That is NOT the same as saying men and women aren't different.

I can't see how promoting equality makes anybody's life harder or can be anything but a good thing?

hmmm...we talk about judging and quite frankly I'm seeing quite alot on this thread too...every now and again your DH or DP acts like an arse...does something that disappoints or infuriates you...that does not mean you are subseviant...that means your man is acting like a wanka...sometimes you just want to vent and speak to people you feel can relate...some people do it online or call a friend or relative...I don't feel they are completely under the thumb...maybe today they don't want to fight...just to complain...

Message withdrawn

MN is a strange little place which I keep coming back to just to be curious, I read something that I find difficult, and I go back to RL vowing never to come back to MN. I seem to come back for more, like an addication. The stiener fury, the BF/FF fury seems to be consistant.

actually i think mumcentreplus makes a good point - the implication of saying that women are being "subservient" by not kicking their man out of bed when they are ill, is effectively making the man's behaviour the fault of the woman.

We should be critising HIS behaviour, not asking why the poor ill woman isn't making him act responsibly.

also in agreement with mumcentreplus, made the mistake about complaining about dh on MN once. Will never do it again. I was more upset by the subsequent posts on the ' you are subservient ' theme than I was with dh in the first place

men and women are different and they will always be differences...hello.. the penis vagina thing alone!..lol..but I believe we can be equal or at least treated equally

I agree with PussinJimmyChoos - we aren't ever going to be equal. Pure biology prevents equality and actually what happens is that women try and be equal and infact that puts us under a huge amount of pressure. Now we're just trying to have it all and most people have to sacrifice something in order to do so - how many men really sacrifice things to achieve everything they wanted out of life? How many men feel bad leaving the kids in childcare? How many have to deal with a six month career break that shouldn't but often does harm career prospects?

Trying to be equal seems to me to make our lives harder and create expectations that are hard to meet and rarely seem to result in genuine happiness. It doesn't make men do more and work harder, it makes women and I can't see a way that we can change that.

I agree with the OP that we should support one another and less of the defensive posting.

In an idea world men and women would have the same rights and opportunities - but we don't! The gender pay gap is actually increasing - not decreasing! Hence part of my reason for saying men and women will never be equal - as much as we like to think about what feminism has done for women - we are still living in a patriarchal (sp!) society where a woman's self esteem is largley defined by how she looks and a lot of women are still dressing for men and not themselves (sad but true!)

But yes, it does digress a bit from the op...

I don't think we will ever be the same if that is what you mean by equal.
But we both have qualities that the other lacks so it can be an equal partnership

You're all wrong.

daft bitches

I am really shocked and saddened by your posts PIJC and MMH - you have completely misunderstood the point of equality.

It isn't that individual women should HAVE to go out to work, or should HAVE to earn the same as men, or should HAVE to do the same jobs as men if they don't want to. Of course if you want to be a SAHM or work part time or if the traditional division of labour into bread-winner/home-maker works for your household that's fine. But it's about saying that if it DOESN'T work for you, that's also fine.

And it's also about saying that if a woman DOES do the same job as a man, she should get the same pay. If she WANTS to do the same job as a man, and is equally qualified, they should both be considered as candidates regardless of their gender.

And yes, I know there is a pay gap, but does that mean we should wash our hands about it and say that we are quite happy for our daughters to be paid 40% less than our sons for doing the exactly same jobs?

Yes but I agree with you op, that women should be treated the same as a man when going for a job, pay should be the same, choices should be supported etc.

What I am saying, is that it just does not happen in today's society! Show me a boss (male or female!) that, when interviewing an equally qualified man and woman for a role, doesn't look at the female job candidate of child bearing age and think mmm....we may lose her to maternity leave at some point, but this won't happen with the bloke...it won't go on the notes, it won't be voiced but you can sure as hell bet that its being thought about and is affecting the decision making process...that's what I mean (along with a whole load of other reasons) about we cannot be equal.

Its all lovely on paper and I agree with it totally, but what I'm saying is that its just not happening!

No it's not happening at the moment, but that we should stop trying to make matters better (which is what you originally said).

Anyway this has nothing to do with the OP, so sorry for the hijack.