All the doctors I know are leaving. Are we going to be screwed for healthcare in 5 years time ?

[Gigihadr]

Our NHS now has some of the worst health outcomes out of 19 wealthy nations compared in an international study.
But in 2010 the NHS regularly ranked 1st or 2nd in most international studies.

The UK is under-doctored, we have a 3rd fewer doctors per 1000 people than Germany or Spain

Our government response to the doctors we have left has been to erode working conditions and pay, ensure they have record levels of inflation and rocketing student debt

They are moving to better paid, better resourced systems/employers (they are a competitive international commodity) and I can’t blame them for that.

AIBU to think we are utterly screwed? why are we just sitting back and watching this slow motion car crash ?

Some of them certainly think they are.

The best team I ever worked with was in ITU, where everyone, nurses to physios to doctors, treated each other as equally expert and competent, it was great. Quite the culture shock when I moved on.

Teacher married to a doctor here. Reading the threads today have spurred me on to look at what New Zealand has to offer us.

I don’t agree. Obviously I am an ACP. I work with some brilliant consultants and registrars who recognise the contribution ACPs and PAs make in clinical practice. We are a team and work together for the patients. It’s disheartening to know that opinions like yours still exist - how far into medical training are you? Thankfully I dont experience negative attitudes like this at work. I do think that the kind of attitudes displayed on this thread re: the medical elite serve to isolate not only other health care professionals but also the general public. Continued support for strike action will undoubtedly wane if justification for a 35% pay rise is through heavy criticism of others and declarations about how special drs are.

And the expect Consultant Dr’s to train them as part of their already demanding role.

HCPs who can work together for the patient never have a problem with roles old and new. It's the ones who are are sub-par who always resort to blaming their/others' uniform and try to go where others are better placed to be. They are the ones letting down their own uniform, usually because they're not very good at what they do and are being political to cover up their inadequacies, with little regard for patients.

By the way, strikes have been announced for juniors and after a short "break" the seniors!

Precisely why I left the ward environment! I challenged a consultant once over a gigantic mistake he’d made and he responded by physically assaulting me and screaming in my face that I was ‘a stupid little nurse’ 😊 started looking for a new job that same day and have never looked back.

Bloody HELL!!!

I once asked a respiratory consultant why my inpatient with brain metastases wasn’t on steroids and he replied “Because I am the doctor”. Obviously I just got the oncologist to prescribe them instead, but sweet zombie Jesus, what a prat. Hate to see it.

What do we know though, eh. Should just stay in our lane like good little lambs.

People might be nice to you are work, but on doctors' forums and in the mess you'll find out how they really feel.

Medicine is elite. It has to be. Why would you want someone without the most rigorous training performing your surgery or making a skilled diagnosis in 10 minutes?

If it's elitist for doctors to practice medicine, it's elitist for ANPs to prevent HCAs from performing their role, too.

Or is elitism and protection of the profession only OK for nurses?

One thing I've noticed with the younger generation that I work with, is they are living much healthier lives than people years ago. No one smokes, the vast majority don't drink as much as my generation did at their age, they watch what they eat and regularly exercise. I'm hoping that they will live healthier, long lives. Elderly people now are heavy users of the NHS but maybe this will change over time?

I think people will have to take more responsibility for their own health, I know an elderly man in his 80's whose life is just a series of district nurse visits, scans, tests, short stays in hospital, repeated UTI's all because he won't drink enough water. His doctor tells him the infections would stop if he drank sufficient water every day. But he won't, he gets 'bored' of drinking water, so within days of being released from hospital, he gets another UTI, gets confused, can't get up, goes back to hospital. It's been going on for years now and I can't for the life of me understand why he won't drink enough fluid!

5mins on a geris ward and you'd be tearing your hair out. Especially in the heat, endless grown adults being asked nicely to drink some water because they keep getting dizzy and falling over.

Sometimes I think it's stubbornness and grasping for a sense of control in the face of their own mortality. In a few cases, maybe passive suicidal ideation from depression. And the rest would just rather drink lemonade sparingly at 80, rather than have some jumped up youngster waving tepid tap water at them.

It's not a slight on others to recognise the truth that the role of a doctor is superior to other HCPs. This doesn't mean that they are superior as individuals and of course everyone as individuals should be equally respected; but there has to be a top to the hierarchy, people who take ultimate responsibility and who have the training (initial and ongoing) to reflect this. The emergent roles that have blurred lines and creeping scope are a risk to patients especially the ones that are still unregulated. This isn't anything against the individuals but its reality.

Perhaps it’s just you and your pals who are spiteful and two-faced because all the doctors I know and am friends with publicly champion the role of the nurse, upskilled or not.

If a HCA that I manage decides they want to go on and do further training within their own role or want support to move upwards, I will do whatever I can to help make that happen. Because I’m not an elitist prick.

I truly believe you should read the GMC good medical practice guide again , if you are indeed a doctor.

I must've missed the Thou Shalt Not Fairly Criticise Noctors bit.

It's not elitist for doctors to want their profession protected and recognised instead of devalued and others who are less qualified earning more than them whilst having less responsibility. If a HCA was on more than you as a nurse and you had to shoulder some of their jobs whilst they went on to do things within your remit there's zero chance you'd be supportive of that.

I agree about the hierarchy , I don’t agree with people disrespecting their colleagues as is evident on this thread.

What do you feel has been disrespectful?

Also seeing as your reading comprehension could use some work, I’ll say it again in more primitive language that you might understand seeing as you’ve popped up from somewhere in the Stone Age.

Nurse no want to be doctor. Nurse want to do training to still be nurse, but more qualified nurse. Nurse and doctor different jobs. Nurse no threat to doctor.

Doctors are just rightly going after their market value. A taxpayer funded system like the NHS will never be able to compete in a competitive market. Time to break it up and privatise, people need to start paying out of pocket.

That's not true in all cases though. A nurse should never be anywhere near doing a TAVI, yet stuff like this happens in trusts across the country. I'm sure no one has an issue with the majority who do work within their scope of practice.

It's also about the roles themselves rather than individuals, people who take it personally perhaps deep down also see the issues?

I don’t think we voted for this. The last elected prime minister was Bojo and he promised millions every week to the NHS on the side of a bus.

I didn’t vote for him, but I don’t think blaming the current govt is useful. This situation has been brewing and rotting for decades. Way before covid.

Whoops wrong quote!!

I sort of see where you’re coming from, but seeing as a HCA would need a nursing degree to perform nursing duties, that scenario isn’t going to happen. However if they want that to happen, I will do whatever I can to get them onto the career path they want to be on.

You’re all banging on about ‘less qualified’ but you cannot compare the qualifications because they are DIFFERENT qualifications. It’s like me saying I’m more/less qualified than a teacher but that doesn’t make any sense because it’s a different degree and the role is different. A doctor is a doctor and a nurse is a nurse. No ANP I have ever met has introduced themselves as anything other than a nurse, and proudly! We don’t want your bloody jobs 😂