Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

Yes behaviour is SHOCKING. and if you think it's bad in primary - secondary is a whole other level.

SOME kids have no respect. They have a 'you can't do anything' attitude with the teachers and they are right. Disciplining/ Expelling kids is very very hard.

Some of the stories my dd tells me are terrifying - these kids need to be in prison not school.

No wonder teachers leave the profession in droves - in any other role if the people you worked with treated you so badly you'd have them in front of a disciplinary panel!

@CheeseBandit I feel sorry for your daughter. I had ASD in a mainstream school, years ago and in a different country and it was a small school with really strict discipline as was the norm there and honestly the feeling of order, safety and boundaries was priceless and I was able to excel academically.
Socially a bit of bullying at points, sure, but it never went beyond social exclusion. Violence would not have been tolerated and while I was sometimes sad, I was never scared.

I genuinely believe that the move towards this very progressive style of parenting is a disaster. All these badly behaved children seem to me at heart to be desperate for some boundaries. How scary and overwhelming to be given that level of power with absolutely no life experience.

Out of interest, how did his parents respond when he was kicked out of class?
Interesting that he chose to become a teacher. How does he now deal with disruptive children?

His parents were horrified and imposed sanctions at home too. They found him pretty hard work! He was bright, over-energetic, a bit bored at school and misbehaved for any teacher that didn't have really good classroom control.

He's actually quit teaching now (after over 20 years, including quite a long time as assistant head, then deputy). He was very good at managing behaviour in his own classroom, and spent a lot of time dealing with the most difficult kids when he was SLT. Generally popular with all but the really unpleasantly-behaved kids. Big personality, robust sense of humour, no nonsense approach.

For what it's worth, and this is only in the area I work in, the parents who you describe as 'progressive' aren't the ones producing the kid's who are causing problems in class. To me the whole gentle parenting thing (when done badly) seems to be producing kids with little resilience but it's this chaotic parenting (changing partners, drug or alcohol use, yelling, police involvement) mixed with huge poverty and deprivation that is producing kids who are can't settle in class. Like I say though that's hugely anecdotal and only based on the area I work in.

@ohfook That does make sense. I suspect the issues are caused by a number of different factors, and it'll be a combination of it all whether relating to parenting, how schools are managed or broader society and unfortunately 8 don't think any fixes will come from making one change in isolation.

There are underlying issues surrounding many families these days that are contributing to this problem in schools. It’s too black and white to just blame ‘shitty parenting’ when those parents are on their knees surviving day to day and in need of help themselves.

Some of those parents are on their knees. Plenty aren't. Sometimes all it takes to create a troublemaker is a tween/teenage desire to push boundaries and parents who haven't imposed any. That was always the case (certainly during all of my 27 years of teaching).

Behaviour has been getting worse for a loooong time, and some of that is down to the fact that both parents and their children no longer automatically accept the authority of the school or teachers and realise that they don't actually have to comply, and that not much can be done about it if they don't. In some ways that can be a good thing - schools are sometimes wrong and their word shouldn't be law. But it has come at a big cost in terms of behaviour and how it affects children's education.

Children who are being neglected/abused/have chaotic homes/SEN aren't being helped by this mamby pampy approach to discipline.

I was at school in the 70s and 80s, had ADHD and autism (undiagnosed of course) was traumatised and brutalised at home due to a violent foster mother and was hungry and neglected to boot. My home life was hell.

The one thing that saved me was that the schools I attended were properly run and the children behaved. There was no bullying or discipline problems. The environment was ordered, calm and cooperative. No arguing back, nothing. I was also fed.

People are asking why SEN is so prevelant - apart from the restricted access to specialised SEN provision, it's also because ND kids can't cope with chaos where it's obvious that their peers are running the place. It's a terrifying feeling. Literally like a zoo.

A bad home life causes harm. Proper discipline in school doesn't. Wee Jimmy isn't going to be traumatised by some proper discipline, being made to face up to his poor behaviour and given a strict framework to work within. It might actually help him feel better. Any hey, everyone else might be able to learn again.

My own autistic ds was bullied out of school. People seem to no longer possess consciences.

No, you’re right. You didn’t insinuated you actually stated it very bluntly:

”Maybe your child expressed a similar nasty attitude towards Wee Jimmy . It wouldn't be that difficult to imagine if this is his mother's attitude towards a CHILD his age.”

Understanding has limits, and any teacher who doesn’t think the limit is somewhere BEFORE allowing the well behaved kids to be used as a punchbag, needs to rethink.

children behaving like that aren't learning anything anyway. Better to just kick them out of school if we can't improve the behaviour. Its not fair on the majority..

Shame caller didn't get cautioned for wasting police time

For what it's worth, and this is only in the area I work in, the parents who you describe as 'progressive' aren't the ones producing the kids who are causing problems in class.

I agree. Gentle parenting etc might not be a very effective method, but at least it's a conscious method with some aim behind it. The parents with out-of-control kids are often parents who aren't very functional themselves in one way or another. They lack boundaries themselves (judging by the way they interact with teachers, other parents and their own children, and the things their children say about them). I don't mean abusive or neglectful parents (though there are those too, of course), just ineffectual, chaotic ones who don't model good behaviour or interpersonal skills to their children.

Do you think going to Borstal was effective?

Dfriend was a teacher at a secondary school in Kent . She had a sixth former who was creating havoc in the classroom, abusing other students and generally being a dick. Dfriend kicked him out of the lesson .
Student then threw a fire extinguisher into the room and ‘reported’ my friend to the Head of sixth form who then sent the student straight back to the classroom.
That was the day that dfriend decided to quit teaching.
She is now a dog walker and has often ‘joked’ that it is easier to control a pack of dogs than a difficult student.

I just wonder why we have all theses issues in this country when some of the so called Third World Countries can have sixty students in a class and behaviour is impeccable.

My dss was in secondary school and the behaviour was appalling. It's not cool to be clever in most state schools and gradually dss behaviour matches that of his peers. 4 detentions in one day. Dss didn't care saw it as a badge of honour and his mother didn't give a shit either.

He can to live with us age 15 end of year 10 and DH came down on him like a ton of bricks for bad behaviour and financial bribary for good behaviour and he really turned it round. Ended up with a £10 voucher from school for achievement points..... He went on to do A levels at 6th form college and now off to uni.

my friends son has had a child with SEN in his class which if triggered results in huge meltdown eg.smashing windows throwing chairs etc. The child in question was basically allowed to do what he likes for fear of triggering another outbursrt. He had a 1 to 1 but they couldn't manage him

Upshot was other boys in the class started querying why doesn't x have to do maths, why doesn't x have to do this and behaviour all round degenerated.

Final point which links to the cool to be clever point is all these programmes eg educating Essex/Yorkshire always focus on the little shits misbehaving. They get a lot of behaviour for being badly behaved and the programmes glorify it.

Depends on the school. I went to a private school in the nineties and children absolutely caused havoc with some teachers - shouting, running around, throwing things. Often fights in the playground. We had one math teacher who knew how to deal with it - when one of the ring leaders did something in the first lesson of the year a board rubber was hurled at high speed very close to his head. No behaviour problems in that class! Behaviour depends on the teachers and the schools ethos.

Bring in 3 strikes and you're out exclusions with a warning first strike and suspension 2nd.

This and broken windows theory policing would soon improve behaviour. Children need a deterrent. If it's not there they'll act out whether in the home or the classroom..

Show me the part where I stated bluntly that her child DESERVED a beating. I mentioned that her child maybe expressed a similar attitude to his mother. At no point did I say that was deserving of being hurt. What you choose to infer is beyond my control. Hysterical reactions don't help any of the children involved and certainly don't prevent the issue from happening again.
I have never suggested a child should be used as a punch bag and any child who physically hurt another in my class would be dealt with appropriately.

Bring in 3 strikes and you're out exclusions with a warning first strike and suspension 2nd

out? out where? children are legally bound to be in school. You're talking massive change to the system if you think you can remove education from a child because their behaviour is less than desireable all of the time.

For some yes, for some no.

So I don't think there is a "one solution that fits all", scenario to be had.

I'd also worry that borstals would basically become an institutional dumping ground for many SEN children sadly. If I'm being honest.

I mean we have PRU's but they don't seem to be working.

I do think school/classroom behaviour really needs to be taught and modelled more in the primary years.

Maybe primary schools do need more support and more ability to discipline children.

You'll always have your SEN children, and children from traumatic backgrounds that for a multitude of reasons can't cope with main stream, and they should be offered more support.

But for little Timmy who is just well being "naughty" and then gaining momentum, escalating, bringing in other peers, that should be able to be nipped in the bud. Setting them up then on a better path for secondary.

I think parenting intervention should also be a thing, where by adults are held responsible for their children's actions more.

But again I really don't know how this would be achieved, I'm not an educator. I'm just the person they answer to once they are an adult (18+), and have done something illegal.

Because their parents are strict, have the right priorities and value education because it will improve their lives and their communities.

People here are lazy and complacent when it comes to education. They know they'll never have to view it as an essential part of their lives. They know they can have a reasonable life without it.

Where are they going to go? Saying "I don't care" isn't enough because those kids would then be left to fester in society. What would be the long term impact of that? Would that really make things better for you and yours in the long run?

Behaviour is off the scale. This is due to a 'perfect storm' of factors that have been brewing for years, most of which schools have no control over.

We now have kids in mainstream secondary schools whose learning levels and ability to regulate their emotions are what you would typically expect to see in a Reception or Year 1 child. There are no special school places for these children. When we tell the LA we cannot meet their needs and that their behaviour is (through no fault of their own) impacting on the learning and wellbeing of others we are basically told to get on with it. If we are lucky, they come to us with an EHCP in place so have funding for a 1:1 TA, but we cannot recruit and retain decent TA's who actually have the skills and experience to manage challenging behaviour. The COL crisis means they're all fucking off to work in retail or in call centres for more money, and I don't blame them.

The recruitment and retention crisis in Teaching means that more and more classes are being taught by an endless procession of supply Teachers. This is unhelpful for all kids, but potentially disastrous for ND kids, those from chaotic homes and kids who have experienced trauma as they desperately need consistency and stable relationships. This inevitably leads to an increase in challenging behaviour, which pushes more Teachers into leaving, so the problem keeps getting worse.

Services that used to support vulnerable families have been cut to the bone, this means that we have more kids than ever before living in poverty, in unstable housing, with parents experiencing poor MH, or in domestically abusive relationships. Youth offending services used to do preventative work to stop kids sliding into ASB or crime, but massive cuts to these services mean now they have to already be in the criminal justice system to get any support. Kids with MH issues are waiting several months to get an assessment, then many more months for therapy and by this time they're either so pissed off with the system they don't engage, or they've have gotten so much worse and they're in crisis and the therapy they've been allocated to doesn't meet their needs anymore. All of this has a massive impact on challenging behaviour in school, and on parents capacity to work with us to address the problems.

To summarise, fuck the Tories.

No they are not legally bound to be in school but legally bound to an education which could be home schooling which is becoming more popular.

The children in these schools have a willingness to learn and have keen supportive parents. Any child who is not deemed academic or has ASN will not receive the same valued education. They are left in institutions or written off as unable to achieve and so won't be in the classroom. Children with low level discipline will be dealt with using corporal punishment. I'm not convinced that's the model we want to return to.

Teach them to do something useful. Preferably away from their problematic and chaotic families.