Secularism in schools: how girls dress

[Chocchops72]

We live in France, DH and I both work in state high schools here. You might know that France has a strict rule of laïcité/ secularism in public spaces, particularly including schools. This means that no one is allowed to wear clothes or display ‘symbols’ that might have a religious significance.

we had a big lecture from the head last night, part of which was a government-mandated reinforcement of laïcité à l’école that is being put in place for the next school year. The particular focus this time has been a type of dress / over-garment that some female, presumably Muslim, students are wearing over their usual clothes, presumably for ‘modesty’ reasons. I’m sorry, I didn’t catch the proper name for it.

we’ve been told that this form of dress is a symbol of religion and, as such, falls under laïcité. Teachers are to challenge the students if they are seen wearing them, and they will be told to remove them or leave the school.

its always seems to focus on girls, never boys, and that really annoys me. None of the boys seem to have any restrictions - none of them even try to wear what might be described as traditional Muslim dress to school (my French colleague tells me it’s just not considered cool for boys) in the first place so they don’t fall foul of these rules. And other girls are allowed to wear whatever they want, often going too far in the opposite direction: no uniforms here, it’s boiling hot, a lot of them are basically wearing bikini tops to school. Which, while it isn’t exactly acceptable under the school rules, doesn’t have nearly the same weight of opprobrium going against it.

i don’t know what my AIBU is: I think everyone is being unreasonable!

My biggest worry with that ,would be the possibility of girls being stopped from going to school by family ,if they can’t wear the clothes their religion says they must .
I wonder what the attendance rates of girls verses boys in these schools

I will never get over the images of male police officers on a French beach, ordering women to strip off (because they considered "burkhinis" to have religious connotations. Whilst a female athlete wearing long sleeves and leggings for hydrodynamic reasons would have been fine. So long as she was white, I presume)

Men can get to fuck with policing women's bodies/clothing either way.

Yep, as usual punishment for not being white. Some people claim to support women or to be feminists, yet also try to dictate what they wear, you can’t be in both camps.

@Summerpetal laïcité applies in every single state school in France, and the vast majority of private (which here tend to be state funded and have to follow the same rules). It’s not like our school is super strict or anything.

Urgh, this is the BS that prevented a friend of DD’s from entering a secondary school they were visiting as part of a cultural exchange during a school trip to Paris. I was more angry that DD’s school say they didn’t know about the law until it was enforced. I told DD that if she had wanted to standby her friend out of solidarity, I would have backed her.

The only thing this ridiculousness has guaranteed, is more alienation which they say is the opposite of what they wanted to achieve.

How much of this is aimed at males ,I’ve not noticed males wearing much religious dress except a turban…is that off limits ..
or just women it’s aimed at ..
maybe some younger women ,are glad of the ruling ,some full covered clothing can’t be nice on a hot day ..
I was thinking ,though ,does their actual religion demand such strict dress codes ? Or has what is expected of these women ,just evolved over time to wear it is now ..
I also wonder the reasoning behind this ruling in France ,what is their actual policy on this,and how did they word it as necessary

You probably have seen religious dress but not realised, a shirt without a collar for example (so lots of t-shirts would come under this unless they have very very short sleeves and are very tight), shorts that almost come to the knee etc.

I’ve had problems with France and their lack of religious tolerance in schools for years. It creates an underclass of uneducated girls.

So is the wearing of crosses also forbidden?

Are you talking about the abaya? Just a long cloak over clothes? I don’t see why that would be banned its like a long kimono, many young women with uncovered hair in the middle east wear then over t’shirts and jeans/leggings and leave them open. Like a long kimono, makes them look quite elegant if you ask me.

It’s more a national dress thing, like the kaftan. They may as well just ban any article of clothing that originated in any middle eastern country.

When two cultures meet, sometimes they compliment each other and sometimes they clash. The difficult question to answer is which culture should take priority; the indigenous secular French culture or the alternative religious culture. There are strong arguements for the French to protect their culture just as their are strong arguments for them to welcome and assimilate other cultures. Ultimately it is a value judgement based on what is felt important.

Back in my days we had muslim girls getting on the bus to school in traditional dresses and as soon the bus was on the way, they would remove the outermost layer of their clothes and have a very modern western outfit to enjoy for the rest of the day. For those type of girls the French rules would be great.

But in England they’d also had to wear a school uniform isn’t it? So is it very different in the end?

@Summerpetal

le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles et établissements scolaires.

traslated… what is banned is « the wearing of signs or clothing showing religious affiliation in schools and educational establishments »

so everything is included, large crosses, turbans, headscarf’s etc. This is nothing new in France, the principle of the separation of church and state is very long standing (and I’m not against the principle).

it just falls on girls, all the time. That’s what pisses me off. Whether it’s family / religious pressure to confirm to ‘modesty’, social / cultural pressure to do the opposite and come to school in a bikini. The boys just rock up in jeans and a t-shirt / hoody year round - whatever their religion.

Yet the French have Ascension Day, All Saints Day, the Assumption of Mary, Christmas and Easter as public holidays.

I don’t believe in policing what people wear at all. If someone wants to wear a bikini top or a burqa, that is a matter for them and, if they are young, their parents.

@LlynTegid and loads of catholic schools / universities !!! This is the bit that confuses me. Private Catholic schools are everywhere, they are state funded and are required to teach the national curriculum.

ironically Muslim families often send their children to catholic private schools as they are perceived to be stricter than state schools.

Is it always girls? Are boys prevented from wearing turbans and yarmulkes?

@Quiverer it’s everything: no religious symbols / clothing in any public venue, including public (state) schools.

I sit on the fence so much on this that I get splinters!

I am not myself someone who would, for instance, be comfortable in a bikini. So if I imagine myself being forced to wear a bikini (i.e. a garment much less modest than I'd choose) to participate in society, I am very sympathetic to Muslim girls and women who want to wear more modest clothes.

On the other hand, I do think that very extreme versions (e.g. covered head to toe with even your eyes behind gauze) inherently seperate the wearer from society (and sometimes cause identity/ security issues). I also don't think they're appropriate for some jobs, such as teaching, because of the effect on communication.

So while I think the French go too far I don't think I can be against all restrictions.

I believe strongly in the freedom of religion. This is archaic, and as others have said runs the real risk of certain girls missing out on education.

It will always affect girls most as most religious or cultural dress is required to be worn by females.

Jewish boys aren't allowed to wear Kippah or tzitzit. I'm told that in the last 20 odd years it's apparently lead to two thirds of them leaving the French state school system.

France makes men wear speedos in public pools. Horrendous.

Most religions are not as concerned with controlling what men/boys wear as much as they are with women/girls, especially when it comes to "modesty".

it just falls on girls, all the time

But that's because the religious expectation of modesty falls on girls. As you say, boys can rock up in jeans and hoodies - so can girls.

What are the numbers on girls dropping out of education because of this? Surely because it is a universal law, then all parents know this from the start and there is less family pressure ?

So not always girls then?