Secularism in schools: how girls dress

[Chocchops72]

We live in France, DH and I both work in state high schools here. You might know that France has a strict rule of laïcité/ secularism in public spaces, particularly including schools. This means that no one is allowed to wear clothes or display ‘symbols’ that might have a religious significance.

we had a big lecture from the head last night, part of which was a government-mandated reinforcement of laïcité à l’école that is being put in place for the next school year. The particular focus this time has been a type of dress / over-garment that some female, presumably Muslim, students are wearing over their usual clothes, presumably for ‘modesty’ reasons. I’m sorry, I didn’t catch the proper name for it.

we’ve been told that this form of dress is a symbol of religion and, as such, falls under laïcité. Teachers are to challenge the students if they are seen wearing them, and they will be told to remove them or leave the school.

its always seems to focus on girls, never boys, and that really annoys me. None of the boys seem to have any restrictions - none of them even try to wear what might be described as traditional Muslim dress to school (my French colleague tells me it’s just not considered cool for boys) in the first place so they don’t fall foul of these rules. And other girls are allowed to wear whatever they want, often going too far in the opposite direction: no uniforms here, it’s boiling hot, a lot of them are basically wearing bikini tops to school. Which, while it isn’t exactly acceptable under the school rules, doesn’t have nearly the same weight of opprobrium going against it.

i don’t know what my AIBU is: I think everyone is being unreasonable!

Yes and no. Orthodox Jewish men and Sikh men are far more distinctively dressed than woman of these religions.

I think that unless you're getting your tits out, the French are fucking fascists when it comes to policing people's clothing choices. Fuck that.

I don't understand

(boys) none of them even try to wear what might be described as traditional Muslim dress to school

so they are not allowed to break the secularity rules, but they .. don't?
The rules still apply to them. What's the problem?

If rules were no topless at school, and only boys were trying to take their tops off, would you complain about rules "focusing on the boys" when they are just rules... and apply to anyone.

You could complain if there were different rules for boys and girls, but .. there are the same?

as opposed to the UK where most schools have mandatory uniforms
and yearly debates about kids having to wear full winter uniform in a heatwave 😂

No school is forced to make uniform mandatory, but most do, probably because there's a cultural expectation, plus many parents favour it. As for the children themselves, whatever option offered there would be people who are unhappy. Having attended schools where uniform was both mandatory and optional, I know which I preferred. (interestingly enough, the uniform optional school has since switched to mandatory).

As for weather, that's the fault of schools for not adapting the uniform to the season. I have no problem with uniform so long as it's sensibly applied. I've mentioned on another thread that at my secondary school, blazers were strictly outdoor summer wear, never worn indoors. We wore short sleeved open necked blouses, no ties. Having pupils swelter in blazers and ties indoors in hot weather is, I agree, ridiculous.

“None of the boys seem to have any restrictions”

Yeah, that’s because mostly religions are only bothered about controlling women 🙄

Women and girls have had their clothing policed at one time or another pretty much everywhere. There’s a fixation on what we wear that’s never applied to men and boys in the same way.

To me it seems they're pretty racist and controlling. Don't want anything altering their white culture. Which includes wanting women to not cover and a the male gaze to be allowed to wander. Even if some people think religious controls women, so does the French culture.

Yes, it has evolved over time. If you look up photos of women in many areas of the middle east from the 1960s and 1970s you will see a lot of western dress. There has been a considerable swing of the pendulum toward stricter dress for women in Islam since then, mainly due to the money and influence of the Wahhabi sect of Saudi Arabia, which builds mosques and funds conservative teachers, charities, etc.

The history of secularism in France goes back to the Revolution, which inaugurated a long period of pendulum swinging between secular and conservative/ Catholic. France has spent about 250 years grappling with the question of what it means to be French and what a French Republic is. (Hence 'the Fifth Republic'). Bound up with this is the question of secularism, and the extent to which religion can encroach on the public sphere.

I wish they'd bring this rule into the U.K. tbh. I don't like my dc seeing the head scarf as a normal part of attire for dc. Adults yes but not for dc. I don't like seeing anything religious including crosses for Christian's etc. its unnecessarily divisive for dc.
If dc miss out in school because parents aren't sending them due to such rules then policies should be in place to prevent or manage that.

Boys not wearing religious attire imo shows that it's only the girls under pressure to do so.
I am brown not white. Often mistaken for a Muslim in Muslim areas in the U.K. and can't believe the pressure put upon me to dress 'appropriately' that's where my opinions stem from before anyone shouts me down. Saying that my experience is in the U.K. only.

racist? the rules date from the early 1900, following centuries of fights after the revolution. They were created to target the Catholic and catholic religious symbols.

What does it have to do with "white culture"?
You can't rewrite century of history just to fit with your agenda.

It's not racist, it's religious. The same rules would apply to people of any colour wearing clothing or items associated with a religion, any religion.

If you knew anything at all about French history, you would know that it arises out of the post-Revolution anti-Catholic movement. It has absolutely nothing to do with whiteness.

Jewish boys aren't allowed to wear Kippah or tzitzit. I'm told that in the last 20 odd years it's apparently lead to two thirds of them leaving the French state school system.

I grew up near a large Sikh population so saw patka ( I think the word) and turbans regularly so did wonder what happened about those but surprised they are just forced out of the state system - I would have thought that would have raised other concerns about segregation and lack of integration,.

This separation does hark back to French history - so I suppose everyone aware of it from outset.

It was odd though watching the woman on the beach being told off few years ago as most of what she wore is similar to what I and DDs wear not for religious reasons but because we have very fair skin and burn easily even with heavy duty sun screen application.

Ooops sorry, I see @itshotontheplayground has already explained. I was clearly much too slow typing…

Their religion doesn't tell them what to wear. Nowhere in their Holly Book does it state a dress code. The rules on dress are made by men to control females.

Well, it's not new is it? Religious symbols have been banned for over 100 years. It applies to everyone. I don't see it as being racist, it's just life in France. FWIW I'm in favour of people keeping their religious views to themselves at work, school etc. People are entitled to their beliefs, but not impose them on others.

If you think girls are treated unfairly, take it up with the religion in question. Laïcité is for everyone, not just girls. It’s inherently French, in the same way right to bear arms is inherently American.

Some countries have peculiar hills to
die on, but it’s part of their national
identity and you can either nod and smile
or live elsewhere.

(FWIW, I wouldn’t live in America because I disagree with their gun laws so much.)

the important test is - if a brown skinned girl has been told to take off her overdress, would a white non-muslim girl also be told to take off the same dress?

I think in any school where this is imposed, the white girls should (if they want to make a political protest) wear the same overdresses to test and push the rules. Tell the teachers it is fashion not religion. and that people can wear what they like.

IMO the fact it seems to affect girls more is because the general trend in religion (I know there are exceptions) requires women to adhere to more stipulations than men, especially in terms of dress.

The research on Assimilation (an underlying process upheld by this law) generally shows that it increases racism.

Having a secular education system does not mean denying whole sections of the population the ability to express their religious beliefs and is racism by proxy in my opinion.

why do you think they want to make a political protest?

People agree with the notion of secular school and country. If you read forums, many people seem really shocked about British children having nativity, holding school carol service in churches.

If a country believe it's a sign of progress to have a secular school system and don't want to go backwards, why do you think anyone will want to protest?

Pretending to wear a religious outfit as a fashion accessories to make a point is absurd.

"People can wear what they want"
Not in my kids schools, they have mandatory uniform 😂

No matter what the original underlying intention was, the simple fact is that if the practice inherently affects people of one race more than others, then it is likely to be racist. Realistically, how many white people, particularly white men, does this affect compared with Asian and black women?

But it affects everyone, no crosses, no kippah, no religious symbols. And white people can be, and are, Muslims. I hardly think that the original edict was set out to annoy non catholics.

I’m curious what would happen if a Christian/religion other than Muslim girl just chose to wear a similar garment? Or if all the girls wore these garments in solidarity? Would they be punished for it?

It seems aimed at girls because most of the cultural rules around clothing and modesty is also aimed at girls. It would be the same if a male student came wearing a turban and told to take it off but there are much more restrictions for religious females rather than the rules being aimed specially at females

I know it’s not aimed at girls, but it impacts on them so much more. Same as the over-sexualised Western culture that has girls coming to school in bikini tops impacts girls more. So yes, égalité in principle but not equity of outcomes at all.

i might try wearing a big kaftan type thing to work and see if I get any comments.

its very easy for me to be ‘culturally’ Christian: there’s nothing in the way I dress which would trigger this reaction in public spaces. But Islamic culture and religion seem to be far more overlapped and entwined, it’s hard to say ‘this’ is religious, ´that’ is cultural.

and yes, France very much prioritises assimilation.