Secularism in schools: how girls dress

[Chocchops72]

We live in France, DH and I both work in state high schools here. You might know that France has a strict rule of laïcité/ secularism in public spaces, particularly including schools. This means that no one is allowed to wear clothes or display ‘symbols’ that might have a religious significance.

we had a big lecture from the head last night, part of which was a government-mandated reinforcement of laïcité à l’école that is being put in place for the next school year. The particular focus this time has been a type of dress / over-garment that some female, presumably Muslim, students are wearing over their usual clothes, presumably for ‘modesty’ reasons. I’m sorry, I didn’t catch the proper name for it.

we’ve been told that this form of dress is a symbol of religion and, as such, falls under laïcité. Teachers are to challenge the students if they are seen wearing them, and they will be told to remove them or leave the school.

its always seems to focus on girls, never boys, and that really annoys me. None of the boys seem to have any restrictions - none of them even try to wear what might be described as traditional Muslim dress to school (my French colleague tells me it’s just not considered cool for boys) in the first place so they don’t fall foul of these rules. And other girls are allowed to wear whatever they want, often going too far in the opposite direction: no uniforms here, it’s boiling hot, a lot of them are basically wearing bikini tops to school. Which, while it isn’t exactly acceptable under the school rules, doesn’t have nearly the same weight of opprobrium going against it.

i don’t know what my AIBU is: I think everyone is being unreasonable!

you are only focusing on the one aspect that will affect Muslim women more than catholic ones, but it's far from the whole story.

If you were focusing on crosses, we could complain that it's targeting catholic. I read that they are more lenient, and a small cross/ crescent/ buddha on a necklace is rarely banned.

Do you really expect a country to go back to their strongest principles? Where would you stop? Some religions allow polygamy. Is it racist to keep banning it, because it only targets a certain category of the population?

You cannot play the "racist" card because you disagree with some rules.

I would imagine the ban on crosses and other Christian artefacts disproportionately affects white people in France, and the ban on yarmulkes disproportionately affects Jewish males in France. So as long as the policy is consistent and widespread across the board then it is not targeting any particular religion, race, sex or skin colour.

But does it in practice stop girls attending school? Or is it so widely accepted as the French cultural norm that people accept it.

It sounds as though you are being "offend on behalf" of another group.

Why then is adultery a sin for men if religion doesn't control men?

It is the religion who is discriminatory towards girls (by prescribing them religious clothes whole leaving boys alone), not the rules banning all faith symbols.

Living in a secular state means that children should be free to decide their religion (or lack of) later in life, and should be free to grow up without over-conforming to limitations of their parents' faith.

Yes, this. I do like the French approach of separating church from state - anyone who wants to practise a religion has to make a choice as an adult rather than do something by default.

I mean, I’ve never been religious, but I did have to go to Sunday School and sing hymns at school because that’s what children from naice families did. I know plenty of people who half-subscribe to Christianity because it’s the one religion they were exposed to at school and church is a socially encouraged thing. I know very few people who actually believe.

I don’t think any religion should be tied up with education. I’m not a fan of any faith schools. Religious education, yes, I think that’s valid. But making children practise a religion at school? No. It’s not the place for it. School should be where children learn about things and form opinions - not where they have beliefs imposed on them.